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Class 710 LO

hwl

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The West Anglia is full at peak times, no chance of more frequency.
(for the benefit of everyone else)
Hence the 2 obvious options:
1. Longer trains (with platform lengthening issues and potential junction clearance time issues)
2. More passengers per unit floor area

2 is cheaper and better value when ordering new stock any way.
 
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hwl

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Do we think there's any chance they might eventually go faster (top speed and/or acceleration) on the West Anglia, thus delivering higher frequency for the same number of trains, or is that pie in the sky given the metro nature of these routes?
The better performance will be used to counteract increasing dwell times due to increasing passenger loadings and run a more reliable service.
 

AlanFry1

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I suspected the diagrammed double 317s were to be worked by single 710s, not sure if I’m right but I didn’t hear they would ever be coupled in service?

INSANE if true. The 317s have more capacity than 315s.
 

samuelmorris

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Do we think there's any chance they might eventually go faster (top speed and/or acceleration) on the West Anglia, thus delivering higher frequency for the same number of trains, or is that pie in the sky given the metro nature of these routes?
710s will offer timing improvements on 315s and 317s but this isn't a 20tph service like the tube, even a generous 10% improvement in journey times will simply be just that, that's unlikely to permit any additional services to be added that are currently only 2 or 4tph. It's possible that the improved performance of the stock from both TOCs (via Anglia's 720s) might mean there is room for maybe one additional path. Who would gain use of that is probably up for debate.
 

Bikeman78

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This is INSANE, this is the busiest service to Cheshunt. Also, do we know how these are to be diagrammed? 710s? Assume most services will be four car unless a few 315s are being kept?
I should imagine the long term plan is for the 17:22 to be worked by 710s. If Upminster remains 315 then there will be 31 710s for 26 diagrams. Should be possible to cover 28 diagrams.
 

swt_passenger

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I suspected the diagrammed double 317s were to be worked by single 710s, not sure if I’m right but I didn’t hear they would ever be coupled in service?
I don't see why you'd expect a specific announcement that new 4 car trains that can operate in pairs, (that are replacing 4 car trains that already run in pairs), would be running in multiple? How much detail needs to be announced?
 

ijmad

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What's the news on getting a third (and fourth... fifth... sixth) unit on the GOBLIN?
 

plcd1

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I don't see why you'd expect a specific announcement that new 4 car trains that can operate in pairs, (that are replacing 4 car trains that already run in pairs), would be running in multiple? How much detail needs to be announced?

A guess on my part but the conditional ORR approval for the 710s prevents multiple operation in passenger services *at this point in time*. There might be an oblique reference to this temporary restriction. I assume Bombardier have to do some more testing to demonstrate compliance with whatever the regs require. I don't know why people are expressing concern about something that is not relevant at this stage. I agree with you that there has been nothing to suggest 710s will not operate in multiple on West Anglia services. I fully expect them to because that level of capacity is essential in the peak.
 

hwl

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A guess on my part but the conditional ORR approval for the 710s prevents multiple operation in passenger services *at this point in time*. There might be an oblique reference to this temporary restriction. I assume Bombardier have to do some more testing to demonstrate compliance with whatever the regs require. I don't know why people are expressing concern about something that is not relevant at this stage. I agree with you that there has been nothing to suggest 710s will not operate in multiple on West Anglia services. I fully expect them to because that level of capacity is essential in the peak.

Agreed. Plenty of storm in a teacup wibble going on.
Plenty of other issues to address before working them in multiple like getting 8 units available for GOBLin and the 378s back on other routes.
Another low priority issue for the time being is the de-iceing functionality as you only need that sorted in another 4 months time...
 

hwl

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There seems to be a lower number of 710s ordered compared to what we have 315 and 317s?
Modern rolling stock requires less maintenance than BR era stock hence on the AC 710 fleet about 1 to 1.5 extra units will be available for the same number of actual units.
 

samuelmorris

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Modern rolling stock requires less maintenance than BR era stock hence on the AC 710 fleet about 1 to 1.5 extra units will be available for the same number of actual units.
That's presumably only if the modern stock develops fewer faults than the old units. Not usually true for the first couple of years new fleets are in service, though admittedly 317s won't take much to beat.
 

ijmad

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A guess on my part but the conditional ORR approval for the 710s prevents multiple operation in passenger services *at this point in time*. There might be an oblique reference to this temporary restriction. I assume Bombardier have to do some more testing to demonstrate compliance with whatever the regs require. I don't know why people are expressing concern about something that is not relevant at this stage. I agree with you that there has been nothing to suggest 710s will not operate in multiple on West Anglia services. I fully expect them to because that level of capacity is essential in the peak.

A related question is why the 710s for the West Anglia lines have been ordered as 31x4 rather than 16x8, given the units will be AC-only and thus only able to work there (obviously the NLL and Watford DC require shoegear and the GOBLIN trains need third rail to get to Willesden TMD, right?).
 

hwl

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That's presumably only if the modern stock develops fewer faults than the old units. Not usually true for the first couple of years new fleets are in service, though admittedly 317s won't take much to beat.
Agreed, that may well be what the Romford-Upminister 315 is retained for, e.g. a couple of years to allow the 710s to bed in.
A single WA 710 fleet insteady of 315s + 317s with the intention not to pair them in service will also help unit availability overall.
 

hwl

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A related question is why the 710s for the West Anglia lines have been ordered as 31x4 rather than 16x8, given the units will be AC-only and thus only able to work there (obviously the NLL and Watford DC require shoegear and the GOBLIN trains need third rail to get to Willesden TMD, right?).
Presumably to allow one to be used on Romford-Upminister,in due time and also to allow 4 cars to be run off peak /weekends to increase the maintenance opportunities overall.
16x8 will have been very marginally more than 31x4 and 8 car might have required more unit overall as the fault rate etc and time in depot could be longer for some tasks that can't be done in parallel (e.g. wheel lathe)
 

100andthirty

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It would be unusual for ORR to impose any conditions that Overground or Bombardier hadn't asked for. In an ideal world, the programme would have gone so well that everything was tested, validated and properly signed off before any trains were put into service. It hasn't been like this for class 710, so all ORR would have been asked for was enough to get the trains into service on Gospel Oak - Barking. As more functions are tested and approved, ORR will be asked for more.

Getting a modern trains approved required more than what used to happened where Her Majesty's Inspector or Railways came down to the depot and "kicked the tyres". Bombardier have to demonstrate to a Notified Body that the relevant Technical Specifications for Interoperability have been complied with, to a Designated Body that Notified National Standards have been complied with and obtain certification from a Safety Assessment Body that a suitable and sufficient risk assessment has been carried out using the Common Safety Method. And, they have to demonstrate that it's compatible with the infrastructure over which it will run. Any residual risks that have to be managed by the TOC or by Network Rail have to be accepted by those organisations Once all this is completed, a Technical File is prepared. This will contain all the restrictions that have been flagged during this process. The Technical file is submitted to ORR for authorisation. This is the law of the land.

Thus, for example, if there's a restriction that the trains can't run as 8-car trains - probably because testing isn't complete - this will be listed in the Technical file.
 

Bikeman78

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That's presumably only if the modern stock develops fewer faults than the old units. Not usually true for the first couple of years new fleets are in service, though admittedly 317s won't take much to beat.
Weekdays there are usually 12 out of 14 of the overground 317s in traffic. The west Anglia fleet only manages 44 out of 57 with is very poor. I would expect 28 out of 31 of the 710s in traffic once they settle down. 30 would be pushing it, no cover for overhauls or mods.
 

Class 170101

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Weekdays there are usually 12 out of 14 of the overground 317s in traffic. The west Anglia fleet only manages 44 out of 57 with is very poor. I would expect 28 out of 31 of the 710s in traffic once they settle down. 30 would be pushing it, no cover for overhauls or mods.

I wouldn't consider 28/31 to be enough to cover for overhauls and mods plus major failures. The privatisation fleets have generally shown to be short when major overhauls and mods are needed.
 

AlanFry1

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The West Anglia is full at peak times, no chance of more frequency.

No it is not. There are gaps at 1606, 1608, 1623, 1636, 1658, 1728, 1758, 1828, 1852, 1858. Further gaps can be made if timetable is played around with.
 

Bald Rick

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Sorry should have said, Liverpool St. these are times where no trains depart several mins before and several after liverpool st. Mostly before slow but after semi fast services.

But timetables aren’t about a single location, they are about a line of route or network. There might be a gap in one direction* at Liverpool St, but there won’t be at one or more of Bethnal Green Junction, Hackney Downs Junction, Bury Street Junction, Clapton Junction, Coppermill Junction, Broxbourne Junction, Stansted South Junction, Stansted Tunnel, etc etc.

* the one direction is key here. Every one of the ‘gaps’ you highlight is filled with a train arriving into an empty platform at Liverpool St West side, in a conflicting move that prevents a new departure. And the platforms are all used to (almost) maximum occupancy. I’ve seen many a timetable drafted by well meaning people that work brilliantly in one direction...

So you see, it really is full. Otherwise the timetable planners who have refined the current WA timetable for the last decade since its inception in a back room in Colchester would have found space to fit more trains in.
 

ijmad

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There was that whole idea to run services just from Seven Sisters to EnfieldTown/Cheshunt. Presumably that could still be an option with spare 710s.
 

20atthemagnet

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But timetables aren’t about a single location, they are about a line of route or network. There might be a gap in one direction* at Liverpool St, but there won’t be at one or more of Bethnal Green Junction, Hackney Downs Junction, Bury Street Junction, Clapton Junction, Coppermill Junction, Broxbourne Junction, Stansted South Junction, Stansted Tunnel, etc etc.

* the one direction is key here. Every one of the ‘gaps’ you highlight is filled with a train arriving into an empty platform at Liverpool St West side, in a conflicting move that prevents a new departure. And the platforms are all used to (almost) maximum occupancy. I’ve seen many a timetable drafted by well meaning people that work brilliantly in one direction...

So you see, it really is full. Otherwise the timetable planners who have refined the current WA timetable for the last decade since its inception in a back room in Colchester would have found space to fit more trains in.

And they did an excellent job, Who runs the full capacity as it is now.
 
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20atthemagnet

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There was that whole idea to run services just from Seven Sisters to EnfieldTown/Cheshunt. Presumably that could still be an option with spare 710s.

To increase a 15 min service that a 710 capacity wise would handle easily...and introduce a possible risk by turning trains around on a running line. Curve is out the question due to signal sighting. Thrown out for this very reason no doubt, and exactly why late trains are turned at London Fields only in extreme cases.
 
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87015

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Seven Sisters turnarounds would need an overhaul of how the WA side of the operation works. Expect it’ll be on the pile of “no money” for a long time.
 
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Crossrail 2 is the only realistic plan in town to add capacity to West Anglia, but the heavens know when that'll be completed. [I started writing out more and realised that would be way off topic!]

Given the constraints on the Lea Valley Lines until then, the longitudinal seating is an unfortunate if understandable choice.
 

AlanFry1

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I'm not sure I agree, as there is a 1622, 1652, 1722, 1752, 1822, and 1922, just not a 1852... This is due to lack of stock.
 

Bald Rick

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I'm not sure I agree, as there is a 1622, 1652, 1722, 1752, 1822, and 1922, just not a 1852... This is due to lack of stock.

Asusming you mean Cheshunt via Southbury services, the “1852” is at 1845, which is when the pattern shifts back from peak to off peak.

In the peak, the extra EnfieldS take the xx15/45 slots to make it an even service, and the Cheshunt shifts to xx22/52. This also makes space for the Hertford East’s to go via Southbury xx11/41, Which in turn frees up space on the Lea Valley for the fast trains to Cambridge / Lynn. (xx07/37)
 
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306024

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But timetables aren’t about a single location, they are about a line of route or network. There might be a gap in one direction* at Liverpool St, but there won’t be at one or more of Bethnal Green Junction, Hackney Downs Junction, Bury Street Junction, Clapton Junction, Coppermill Junction, Broxbourne Junction, Stansted South Junction, Stansted Tunnel, etc etc.

* the one direction is key here. Every one of the ‘gaps’ you highlight is filled with a train arriving into an empty platform at Liverpool St West side, in a conflicting move that prevents a new departure. And the platforms are all used to (almost) maximum occupancy. I’ve seen many a timetable drafted by well meaning people that work brilliantly in one direction...

So you see, it really is full. Otherwise the timetable planners who have refined the current WA timetable for the last decade since its inception in a back room in Colchester would have found space to fit more trains in.

Yes planning a timetable in both directions does make it more of a challenge ;)

The timetable may have been born in Colchester but it was conceived over a coffee in Canary Wharf. It had previously been stated there was little demand from the Lea Valley to Canary Wharf, but others thought differently. So the Stratford service was doubled together with all the other changes.

Today some performance analysts argue the timetable is too tight. Which just proves the route must be full.
 

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