Hull Trains service left Selby 4 minutes before public departure time..

D89 HAC · 2 Jun 2019

I drove my partner to Selby this afternoon as she was catching the 17.05 Hull Trains service to London (KGX).

Mainly because I'm used to these services coming in from Hull two or three minutes down and as RTT showed it the usual 3 late at Howden, I was surprised to see the 180 unit arriving at 16.55 as we parked the car. My partner hurried over the bridge and got on board but then I was amazed to see the train depart at 17.01, a full four minutes before the advertised time - which was still showing as the 17.05 Hull Trains to KGX on the screen minutes after it had gone. RTT recorded it as leaving Selby at 17.01.

Any ideas what went on? If it was retimed (in working times) no one bothered to inform the fare paying passenger. Why didn't it wait time?

For what it's worth, the service later stood about 30 minutes before Retford and arrived at KGX 41 late.

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800001 · 2 Jun 2019

I would say looking at RTT that it has been an honest mistake by the crew.

Saperstein · 2 Jun 2019

Yes, 1A95 1621 Hull to London Kings Cross shows 4E at Selby.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y60012/2019/06/02/advanced

But it does show “Var” does this mean it’s a variation from the original schedule I wonder? Don’t know the route too well, know less of the usual timings.

Between Selby and Doncaster it is showing as 8E at one point.

My guess it was because of the disruption at Retford “problem with line side equipment”, which is why the service was 41L at Retford.

Just a guess but I’ve never known a passenger service leave 4E under normal running.

HTH.

father_jack · 2 Jun 2019

Crew error but something lacks in HT leadership overall, see elsewhere. Drivers don't (usually) look at the clock but have a schedule card and an idea how long it takes between stops. I had (years ago) a demanding guard looking for a tip way early as soon as the signal pulled off, after much whistle blowing I despatched him for peaces sake but the driver didn't move !!! Road was off but after driver had consultation/ harsh words with guard the train went out late........

gimmea50anyday · 3 Jun 2019

Looks like 1A96 a fail to call at Howden too according to internal messaging

D89 HAC · 3 Jun 2019

JamesGar said:
I would say looking at RTT that it has been an honest mistake by the crew.

If it's an 'honest mistake', then it's a mistake by at least two members of crew- I can't believe a driver will just set off because his signal is off - surely he's going to take a tip from his conductor/guard/train manager/whatever. Given how visible railway time is on platform indicators (never mind the availability of a wristwatch!), I'm staggered that for whatever reason, that service has managed to leave a full four minutes early by mistake. If people are condemned to miss a train with all the attendant pressure to occupy their pre-booked advance ticket seats or incur penalties, it's a pretty ordinary piece of operating from Hull Trains.

westv · 3 Jun 2019

gimmea50anyday said:
Looks like 1A96 a fail to call at Howden too according to internal messaging

HST?
..

D89 HAC · 3 Jun 2019

westv said:
HST?
..

No, it was a 180.

HullRailMan · 3 Jun 2019

D89 HAC said:
No, it was a 180.

It was cancelled throughout

D89 HAC · 3 Jun 2019

HullRailMan said:
It was cancelled throughout

We're discussing 1A95 16.21 Hull-KX. A northbound 1H05 was caped at Doncaster.

lincolnshire · 3 Jun 2019

D89 HAC said:
I drove my partner to Selby this afternoon as she was catching the 17.05 Hull Trains service to London (KGX).

Mainly because I'm used to these services coming in from Hull two or three minutes down and as RTT showed it the usual 3 late at Howden, I was surprised to see the 180 unit arriving at 16.55 as we parked the car. My partner hurried over the bridge and got on board but then I was amazed to see the train depart at 17.01, a full four minutes before the advertised time - which was still showing as the 17.05 Hull Trains to KGX on the screen minutes after it had gone. RTT recorded it as leaving Selby at 17.01.

Any ideas what went on? If it was retimed (in working times) no one bothered to inform the fare paying passenger. Why didn't it wait time?

For what it's worth, the service later stood about 30 minutes before Retford and arrived at KGX 41 late.

So do you always arrive very close to time then to catch the train?knowing its usually late?
Did you see the station departure board screens clock to determine that it left early?
At times a train can be still on the screen and its all ready gone as the screen has not updated quick enough.
Also as someone said in another post about the driver having a green signal to go, as in a lot of cases there can be a green in the signal well before he every gets to the station.

Crossover · 3 Jun 2019

D89 HAC said:
We're discussing 1A95 16.21 Hull-KX. A northbound 1H05 was caped at Doncaster.

@gimmea50anyday mentioned 1A96 as not calling at Howden. As another poster has pointed out, this appears to have been cancelled throughout

gimmea50anyday · 3 Jun 2019

Tyrell messages suggest 1A96 did run but simply didn't call at Howden for whatever reason. Nothing further was given other than taxi arrangements to Doncaster for alternative (I presume LNER) train services. I'll see if I can get tyrell to scroll that far back time wise and look at the messages again

Spartacus · 3 Jun 2019

1A96 should have been cancelled due to a toilet flooding the carriage, but whatever the reason for that I think this is about 1A95.

I can see how 1A95 leaving early would happen, having been a bit late earlier in it's journey, the crew would probably have been keen to 'get on' and get some time back. In that sort of situation it's only human to maybe not pay the sort of attention to the time as one should. You're late, you know you're late, so why waste more time double checking your watch when you do this run every day and you know you can't make time up in that section. The trouble is that with it had an earlier than WTT start time from Selby with engineering time between Howden and Wressle so it was already early arriving at Selby. Time had been made up when normally it would be impossible.

When there's variations in it's also not unknown for the crew's job card to be at odds with what's actually published, I think because sometimes it's based on what's bid for, not offered back by NR. Rarer, but not unknown is for the station boards to be wrong.

It's not unknown for some lines to run a little early, branch lines in particular, but it certainly should be happening here.

Whatever the reason for it I hope you've contacted Hull Trains directly?

dk1 · 3 Jun 2019

D89 HAC said:
If it's an 'honest mistake', then it's a mistake by at least two members of crew- I can't believe a driver will just set off because his signal is off - surely he's going to take a tip from his conductor/guard/train manager/whatever. Given how visible railway time is on platform indicators (never mind the availability of a wristwatch!), I'm staggered that for whatever reason, that service has managed to leave a full four minutes early by mistake. If people are condemned to miss a train with all the attendant pressure to occupy their pre-booked advance ticket seats or incur penalties, it's a pretty ordinary piece of operating from Hull Trains.

To be fair I as a driver have often gone when getting the 'buzz buzz' from the guard without ever checking my watch. When you get the ready to start signal you tend to not question it & go.

northernchris · 3 Jun 2019

Spartacus said:
In that sort of situation it's only human to maybe not pay the sort of attention to the time as one should. You're late, you know you're late, so why waste more time double checking your watch when you do this run every day and you know you can't make time up in that section. The trouble is that with it had an earlier than WTT start time from Selby with engineering time between Howden and Wressle so it was already early arriving at Selby. Time had been made up when normally it would be impossible.

According to RTT the trains was at Selby from 1656-1701 which is longer than a standard station call. It could have been the crew were distracted by the earlier fail to call and assumed they were already late, or it could be their schedule dockets showed it was due out at 1701

D89 HAC · 3 Jun 2019

lincolnshire said:
So do you always arrive very close to time then to catch the train?knowing its usually late?
Did you see the station departure board screens clock to determine that it left early?
At times a train can be still on the screen and its all ready gone as the screen has not updated quick enough.
Also as someone said in another post about the driver having a green signal to go, as in a lot of cases there can be a green in the signal well before he every gets to the station.

No, I don't always arrive close to to time - do you? There's no argument that the thing left four minutes early (which I think worthy of comment) at 17.01 and it's nothing to do with lingering departures on departure boards after trains have left. It was determined by the clock and railway digital clocks. Simple enough.

Searle · 3 Jun 2019

lincolnshire said:
So do you always arrive very close to time then to catch the train?knowing its usually late?
Did you see the station departure board screens clock to determine that it left early?
At times a train can be still on the screen and its all ready gone as the screen has not updated quick enough.
Also as someone said in another post about the driver having a green signal to go, as in a lot of cases there can be a green in the signal well before he every gets to the station.

Are you legitimately trying to blame this on a customer who has turned up on time for their train? lmao

Starmill · 3 Jun 2019

lincolnshire said:
So do you always arrive very close to time then to catch the train?

D89 HAC says they arrived at 1655 for a 1705 scheduled departure. That is not 'very close to time'.

Even if they did arrive 'very close to time', I am not sure what that would have to do with anything?

gimmea50anyday · 3 Jun 2019

1A95 - why this left 4E I cannot say.

1A96 - the reason I mentioned this train was in reaction to 1A95 leaving SBY early as an internal message stated 1A96 was no longer calling at Howden. This message was released AFTER the train was scheduled to call at Howden so it appeared on face value to have been a fail to call. Two trains in succession on the same day is unusual so was worthy of mention. Subsequent messages make this now appear to be pre-planned as today (03/06) and tomorrow (04/06) 1A96 has dropped the Howden stop. Again why is not clear as the train has to pass through Howden anyway. The only possibility that makes sense to me is if the train is formed of the HST which "may" be too long for the platform. I however am not aware of the train or platform lengths at Howden so cannot speculate.

Crossover · 3 Jun 2019

gimmea50anyday said:
Again why is not clear as the train has to pass through Howden anyway. The only possibility that makes sense to me is if the train is formed of the HST which "may" be too long for the platform. I however am not aware of the train or platform lengths at Howden so cannot speculate.

The HST working cannot call at Howden - to do with grandfather rights (or lack of) I believe for calling at a short platform.

Mojo · 3 Jun 2019

lincolnshire said:
So do you always arrive very close to time then to catch the train?knowing its usually late?
Did you see the station departure board screens clock to determine that it left early?
At times a train can be still on the screen and its all ready gone as the screen has not updated quick enough.
Also as someone said in another post about the driver having a green signal to go, as in a lot of cases there can be a green in the signal well before he every gets to the station.

In what way is arriving at the station ten minutes before the scheduled departure time of a train arriving "very close to time?"

HullRailMan · 3 Jun 2019

D89 HAC said:
We're discussing 1A95 16.21 Hull-KX. A northbound 1H05 was caped at Doncaster.

I as referring to the poster who seemed to be talking about 1A96 on Sunday

jamesst · 4 Jun 2019

dk1 said:
To be fair I as a driver have often gone when getting the 'buzz buzz' from the guard without ever checking my watch. When you get the ready to start signal you tend to not question it & go.

Yep I'm with you on this, done it many many times!!

Mag_seven · 4 Jun 2019

dk1 said:
To be fair I as a driver have often gone when getting the 'buzz buzz' from the guard without ever checking my watch. When you get the ready to start signal you tend to not question it & go.

There were a number of accidents many moons ago when the driver failed to check the signal aspect too.

dk1 · 4 Jun 2019

Mag_seven said:
There were a number of accidents many moons ago when the driver failed to check the signal aspect too.

That's why we have DRA now.

vikingdriver · 4 Jun 2019

I take my watch off and put it in my pocket and once checked for anything unusual, I fold my diagram so I can't see the timings. Basically I try to minimise any time related information that may potentially encourage a more risky driving technique.

lincolnshire · 4 Jun 2019

D89 HAC said:
No, I don't always arrive close to to time - do you? There's no argument that the thing left four minutes early (which I think worthy of comment) at 17.01 and it's nothing to do with lingering departures on departure boards after trains have left. It was determined by the clock and railway digital clocks. Simple enough.

We all now know that the departure time was confirmed by you from the station departure boards clocks, so that will be correct as you say. But beforehand I didn,t know if you was going by just your watch and looking from the station front or car park area.
Its ok everyone saying they checked this and that site for information and timings but now it has been confirmed that it went early confirmed by the on site clocks.

TUC · 4 Jun 2019

vikingdriver said:
I take my watch off and put it in my pocket and once checked for anything unusual, I fold my diagram so I can't see the timings. Basically I try to minimise any time related information that may potentially encourage a more risky driving technique.

So how do you know if you are on time?

vikingdriver · 4 Jun 2019

TUC said:
So how do you know if you are on time?

Quite honestly, I'm not bothered. Others may disagree, but as far as I am concerned the guard worries about the dispatch of the train at the correct time, I simply worry about getting from A to B safely. You'll always be aware of how the service is doing, its difficult to avoid that information totally and I know that driving normally with an average unit I can keep to time. For me its all about avoiding any situation where I end up chasing the clock thinking "I'm a few minutes down, I'll leave it later to brake", "I'll hit the platform ramp faster today" etc and then ending up having an incident.

Hull Trains service left Selby 4 minutes before public departure time..

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