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Do any DCO services have Guards?

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TurbostarFan

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Is it possible for a train to be worked as Driver Controlled Operation (DCO) with a guard onboard who can deal with emergency situations, customer service and revenue duties? Or is a guard onboard a DCO service not known as a guard given that they don't dispatch the train.
 
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Sleepy

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This is what will happen on Greater Anglia once new stock is all in place - the driver will perform all door operation / dispatch duties in normal operation but a guard must be provided on all routes which currently operate as non - DOO . I thought Scotrail model was DOO operation with ATE that checks/ sells tickets on the limited routes this happens ?
 
Highlandspring

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Sleepy said:
I thought Scotrail model was DOO operation with ATE that checks/ sells tickets on the limited routes this happens ?
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ScotRail is DCO on Glasgow Central/Edinburgh - North Berwick, E&G (1Rxx via Falkirk High and 2Jxx Grahamston), Dunblane, Alloa, and Shotts routes; the driver releases the doors and the guard shuts them. There was a big industrial dispute which resulted in this around 2015/16. Other former SPT routes are DOO.
 
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Highlandspring said:
ScotRail is DCO on Glasgow Central/Edinburgh - North Berwick, E&G (1Rxx via Falkirk High and 2Jxx Grahamston), Dunblane, Alloa, and Shotts routes; the driver releases the doors and the guard shuts them.
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Point of order - that is not DCO, that is full guarded operation but with driver release, which is used on a number of TOCs e.g. all VTWC and XC services that are operated using Pendolinos or Voyagers, and any non-DOO Southern services for starters.
 
Starmill

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If the guard must be present on the train, and also must close the doors for the train to run, I do not see how that is 'Driver Controlled' (DCO) at all.
 
Mojo

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All Southeastern services within the ‘Metro’ area have the driver operating the doors, however their longer distance services (eg. London to Dover) require a guard and these are on board for the entire journey.
 
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DCO is really just DOO with a change of name to try and avoid the controversy (and resulting industrial action) of DOO - an effort which failed miserably.

Regardless of whether or not a 2nd member of staff is "planned" to be on all services, which may be "subject to change in times of disruption" or whatever other ways out that TOCs / the DfT try and come out with, the situation is quite simple.

If a train can run under any circumstances, in public service, with just a Driver on - then it's DOO. If the lack of a 2nd member of staff means that that service must be cancelled, then that service is not DOO.

So to give some examples:
ScotRail - on most Strathclyde electric services, a ticket examiner is rostered to every service. But if for whatever reason they're not on board, the train can still run. This is DOO, or DCO if you prefer.
On those services that were recently electrified (E-G, Stirling etc) a guard is rostered for every service. If for whatever reason they're not on board, the train is cancelled. This is not DOO, or DCO - this is DGO. The fact that in this particular circumstance the guards only close the doors, with the driver opening, is irrelevant. The train can't run in public service without a guard, therefore it's not DOO.
 
cactustwirly

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craigybagel said:
DCO is really just DOO with a change of name to try and avoid the controversy (and resulting industrial action) of DOO - an effort which failed miserably.

Regardless of whether or not a 2nd member of staff is "planned" to be on all services, which may be "subject to change in times of disruption" or whatever other ways out that TOCs / the DfT try and come out with, the situation is quite simple.

If a train can run under any circumstances, in public service, with just a Driver on - then it's DOO. If the lack of a 2nd member of staff means that that service must be cancelled, then that service is not DOO.

So to give some examples:
ScotRail - on most Strathclyde electric services, a ticket examiner is rostered to every service. But if for whatever reason they're not on board, the train can still run. This is DOO, or DCO if you prefer.
On those services that were recently electrified (E-G, Stirling etc) a guard is rostered for every service. If for whatever reason they're not on board, the train is cancelled. This is not DOO, or DCO - this is DGO. The fact that in this particular circumstance the guards only close the doors, with the driver opening, is irrelevant. The train can't run in public service without a guard, therefore it's not DOO.
Click to expand...

No DCO is a guarded service where the driver opens and closes the doors, like Southern and ScotRail 385 services.
GWR Turbos use the 16 bells procedure which is basically like DCO
 
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cactustwirly said:
GWR Turbos use the 16 bells procedure which is basically like DCO
Click to expand...

It's 10 bells - 1-2 to instruct the driver to close the doors (repeated by the driver) then 2 to give the ready to start signal (also repeated). This is also only the case in the Thames Valley area, guards close the doors using the blue button in the West region (which required modification).

It's not really DCO though, the guard still effectively has control over the closing of the doors, they just relay the instruction rather than doing it themselves.

To take that method of working to the extreme we used to have to instruct the driver to open the doors on a 180 (3-2 on the bell) although we could close doors ourselves.
 
Mojo

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cactustwirly said:
No DCO is a guarded service where the driver opens and closes the doors, like Southern and ScotRail 385 services.
GWR Turbos use the 16 bells procedure which is basically like DCO
Click to expand...
DCO is, for rule book purposes, a train running and being dispatched as DOO[1], but where the Toc has a commitment to roster an extra individual on board the train. If the second staff member has any role in the dispatch of a train, including pressing the bell/buzzer to signal to the Driver that the doors may be closed, or the train has to be cancelled/run empty if the second member of staff is unavailable, then it is not DCO.

[1] AIUI, the Highspeed services operated by Southeastern are slightly different as they cannot run in customer service unless an Onboard Manager is present, although the driver is responsible for operating the train doors and dispatching the train.
 
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craigybagel

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cactustwirly said:
No DCO is a guarded service where the driver opens and closes the doors, like Southern and ScotRail 385 services.
GWR Turbos use the 16 bells procedure which is basically like DCO
Click to expand...

I was going to make a very long post explaining why you're wrong but thankfully two of my colleagues have already done that for me.

Sprinter153 said:
It's 10 bells - 1-2 to instruct the driver to close the doors (repeated by the driver) then 2 to give the ready to start signal (also repeated). This is also only the case in the Thames Valley area, guards close the doors using the blue button in the West region (which required modification).

It's not really DCO though, the guard still effectively has control over the closing of the doors, they just relay the instruction rather than doing it themselves.

To take that method of working to the extreme we used to have to instruct the driver to open the doors on a 180 (3-2 on the bell) although we could close doors ourselves.
Click to expand...

Mojo said:
DCO is, for rule book purposes, a train running and being dispatched as DOO[1], but where the Toc has a commitment to roster an extra individual on board the train. If the second staff member has any role in the dispatch of a train, including pressing the bell/buzzer to signal to the Driver that the doors may be closed, or the train has to be cancelled/run empty if the second member of staff is unavailable, then it is not DCO.

[1] AIUI, the Highspeed services operated by Southeastern are slightly different as they cannot run in customer service unless an Onboard Manager is present, although the driver is responsible for operating the train doors and dispatching the train.
Click to expand...
 
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Mojo said:
AIUI, the Highspeed services operated by Southeastern are slightly different as they cannot run in customer service unless an Onboard Manager is present, although the driver is responsible for operating the train doors and dispatching the train.
Click to expand...

How do they ensure that the onboard manager is on the train? When the guard is involved in dispatching the train then their presence is confirmed before leaving every station- a compulsory member of staff who has no involvement in dispatch could easily get left behind.
 
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mark-h said:
How do they ensure that the onboard manager is on the train? When the guard is involved in dispatching the train then their presence is confirmed before leaving every station- a compulsory member of staff who has no involvement in dispatch could easily get left behind.
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If your talking about before they leave the first station its presumably the same way as it is done on Southern in regards to OBS. They let the driver know they are on board. I am pretty sure on Southeastern the On Board Manager is not even required to step onto the platform at every station so theoratically they should not be left behind but on Southern the OBS will leave the stewards panel key on whilst on the platform which isolates the local door.
 
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cactustwirly said:
No DCO is a guarded service where the driver opens and closes the doors, like Southern and ScotRail 385 services.
GWR Turbos use the 16 bells procedure which is basically like DCO
Click to expand...
Southern services that are DOO do not have guards on them. They have OBSs who are not safety critically competent or trained (unless it is a conductor who happens to be covering for an OBS - but even then the conductor may not have the route knowledge for the route they are OBSing on)
 
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MPotter said:
Is it possible for a train to be worked as Driver Controlled Operation (DCO) with a guard onboard who can deal with emergency situations, customer service and revenue duties? Or is a guard onboard a DCO service not known as a guard given that they don't dispatch the train.
Click to expand...
DOO/DCO method of operation does not require a Guard but may have a On Board Manager/Supervisor (OBM/OBS), Ticket Examiner (TE), Conductor etc. That said, a person who is a trained Guard may be present on such a train, but not performing the particular duties applicable to that role regarding the operation of the train.

Southeastern HS has OBMs, some GTR Southern routes have OBSs, Scotrail has TEs and so on.

The role of Guard has a specific meaning and does not apply to these roles.
 
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craigybagel

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Starmill said:
Is that right? Even though it is the guard doing that, and not the driver.

This does not make a great deal of sense, but regardless of which way one interprets it, this still seems very unlikely to be true.
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The fact that the guards use a number of buzzers is about the only accurate part of the post.

GWR used 10 (not 16) bells on its Turbos when they were used on services around Reading. The ones that have been moved to the Bristol area have been modified - so the driver still opens but the guard can close at the push of a button, without relying on the driver to do so. They've also had local door controls fitted for short platforms.
 
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