People's attitude to buying tickets.

175mph · 4 Jun 2019

Jack15001 said:
These posters are even at stations where you can't buy a ticket, what is the occasional rail user supposed to make of that? You can't buy a ticket here but you risk a penalty fare or prosecution if you travel without one. Regulars will know that you can buy a ticket on the train or pay at your destination but why doesn't it say that on the poster?

I've seen those notices at the tiny unstaffed stations near to Doncaster and there doesn't seem to be a TVM in sight, luckily from what I've noticed, the conductors always seems to do the right thing and sell the tickets on board without even mentioning a possibility of a penalty fare.

RailUK Forums

TurbostarFan · 4 Jun 2019

175mph said:
I've seen those notices at the tiny unstaffed stations near to Doncaster and there doesn't seem to be a TVM in sight, luckily from what I've noticed, the conductors always seems to do the right thing and sell the tickets on board without even mentioning a possibility of a penalty fare.

I think the idea is that if you don't pay at the first opportunity then you may be charged a PF.

Antman · 4 Jun 2019

175mph said:
I've seen those notices at the tiny unstaffed stations near to Doncaster and there doesn't seem to be a TVM in sight, luckily from what I've noticed, the conductors always seems to do the right thing and sell the tickets on board without even mentioning a possibility of a penalty fare.

Yes I've never seen anyone have a problem buying a ticket from the guard in such circumstances but the rather threatening poster might put some people off travelling.

mattmtfc · 13 Aug 2019

Think it depends on the depot the guard is based at on lner Newcastle guards especially a certain 1 who has now retired will only sell anytime tickets. But nearly all KX and Leeds Guards will sell the full range. On TPE Hull Cleethorpes and Scarborough Conductors will sell the full range as will some york and Piccadilly guards. But theres 1 piccadilly guard who wont hesitate to report anybody staff included. I know that tpe staff lost perks on virgin because of him.

Hazlehead · 16 Aug 2019

Some interesting comments on here. Most of them valid. One option that I'm not sure has been mentioned is that many Tocs especially all Intercity ones, and I know not all TOCs do, accept mobile tickets and e tickets now. Most people have smartphones these days so buying a ticket takes seconds so the excuse of I didn't have time etc is surely becoming obsolete and I would therefore expect the byelaws/ Nrcoc to be changed to reflect this?
And i agree there is discrepancy between Guards but believe me its very difficult to get someone to pay the full fare on board and you can spend ages dealing with just one person that many guards just have given up trying to apply the rules. We sadly live in a society whereby people will just do what they want and think its perfectly ok to get into an argument when someone comes along and says no you cant do that.

TurbostarFan · 16 Aug 2019

Terrier said:
Some interesting comments on here. Most of them valid. One option that I'm not sure has been mentioned is that many Tocs especially all Intercity ones, and I know not all TOCs do, accept mobile tickets and e tickets now. Most people have smartphones these days so buying a ticket takes seconds so the excuse of I didn't have time etc is surely becoming obsolete and I would therefore expect the byelaws/ Nrcoc to be changed to reflect this?
And i agree there is discrepancy between Guards but believe me its very difficult to get someone to pay the full fare on board and you can spend ages dealing with just one person that many guards just have given up trying to apply the rules. We sadly live in a society whereby people will just do what they want and think its perfectly ok to get into an argument when someone comes along and says no you cant do that.

Yeah but the other side of the argument is what if the person doesn't use m tickets (for whatever reason) and the guard doesn't do their job properly by coming through the train when they should (in the case of a Paytrain station or where the passenger had changed their mind and wants to travel beyond the validity of their ticket) but they stop the passenger (as they have no valid ticket) and then charge them the full fare (or worse still charge them to court). This raises the catch 22 scenario of either seeking out the guard (and finding that they aren't interested or being missold the wrong ticket) or remaining where you are and being stopped by the guard. I think I would rather the latter as at least the ticket sold will be valid for the journey I want to make and any prosecution is unlikely and the only thing likely to result is a not guilty verdict even if I was prosecuted.

WelshBluebird · 16 Aug 2019

Terrier said:
Some interesting comments on here. Most of them valid. One option that I'm not sure has been mentioned is that many Tocs especially all Intercity ones, and I know not all TOCs do, accept mobile tickets and e tickets now. Most people have smartphones these days so buying a ticket takes seconds so the excuse of I didn't have time etc is surely becoming obsolete and I would therefore expect the byelaws/ Nrcoc to be changed to reflect this?

Why on earth should people be forced to buy tickets on smartphones given the well known issues with current e/mtickets?
Are you going to suggest the guards check the battery percentage of those who haven't bought an mobile ticket? What if I just claim I don't have a smartphone?

TurbostarFan · 16 Aug 2019

WelshBluebird said:
Why on earth should people be forced to buy tickets on smartphones given the well known issues with current e/mtickets?
Are you going to suggest the guards check the battery percentage of those who haven't bought an mobile ticket? What if I just claim I don't have a smartphone?

Exactly. It's not like they have the power to inspect your phone without a warrant anyway, smart or not. If we do want to introduce that legal power then we will require new legislation entirely, not just a slight modification to the conditions of travel and Byelaws.

yorkie · 16 Aug 2019

Terrier said:
Some interesting comments on here. Most of them valid. One option that I'm not sure has been mentioned is that many Tocs especially all Intercity ones, and I know not all TOCs do, accept mobile tickets and e tickets now. Most people have smartphones these days so buying a ticket takes seconds so the excuse of I didn't have time etc is surely becoming obsolete and I would therefore expect the byelaws/ Nrcoc to be changed to reflect this?

This is not going to happen, and rightly so.

If they attempted to implement your idea, I and others would be campaigning strongly against it.

Terrier said:
We sadly live in a society whereby people will just do what they want and think its perfectly ok to get into an argument when someone comes along and says no you cant do that.

It is true that some people think they can do what they want; those people work in a variety of professions and that doesn't exclude train guards; so it can work the other way: a passenger can be on an entirely valid ticket and be told they are invalid, or a passenger may be entitled to buy a particular fare and be denied that right.

All people need to act appropriately and reasonably, whether they be passengers or staff alike.

WesternLancer · 24 Dec 2019

One of the things that strikes me as interesting on this forum is the common circs of people who seek advice, having been in circumstances where they admit they are guilty of not purchasing a ticket. Obv it is a tiny % of people who are caught for such things who make their way here, admit their error and seek advice about how to mitigate the problem, but it occurs to me to note the regularity of people who seem to be pursuing, or keen to pursue, careers in things like finance, pharmacy, medical related work etc.

Strikes me as rather worrying that people who seek to be in such positions of trust vis a vis the rest of the population (or their money or their health for example) are on occasion at least, prepared to take such an attitude when it comes to the honesty required of public transport users...

yorkie · 24 Dec 2019

WesternLancer said:
One of the things that strikes me as interesting on this forum is the common circs of people who seek advice, having been in circumstances where they admit they are guilty of not purchasing a ticket...

Sorry if this sounds pedantic but I feel it is important to point out there is no offence of 'not purchasing a ticket' as such; there are many occasions where there is no requirement to purchase a ticket before boarding; it may not even be possible, or it may be encouraged.

Even where not officially sanctioned, it is generally unlikely for a prosecution to occur simply due to not purchasing a ticket where facilities were available unless there is some evidence of intent to avoid the fare.

But I'll proceed on the basis that you are referring to people who are being accused of intending to avoid payment of the fare and are at risk of getting a criminal record...

WesternLancer said:
Obv it is a tiny % of people who are caught for such things who make their way here, admit their error and seek advice about how to mitigate the problem, but it occurs to me to note the regularity of people who seem to be pursuing, or keen to pursue, careers in things like finance, pharmacy, medical related work etc.

Strikes me as rather worrying that people who seek to be in such positions of trust vis a vis the rest of the population (or their money or their health for example) are on occasion at least, prepared to take such an attitude when it comes to the honesty required of public transport users...

The vast majority of people in this situation (by some margin!) are not on here seeking advice.

It is unsurprising that those who are particularly keen to settle the matter out of court (which benefits all parties concerned) and who are worried about the impact it has on their future career, are going to be people who are in, training/studying to become, the sorts of positions you describe.

Let's face it, many people who have no intention of paying for rail fares, do not have a job that would require a CRB check and would not be particularly bothered about a criminal conviction. Those people are not going to be remotely interested in coming on here seeking advice.

Trainfan2019 · 24 Dec 2019

I don't get how there's all the posters at stations and on trains warning about penalty fares in operation but never enforced. Northern and EMR are good examples of not enforcing penalty fares. EMR usually have network maps in their printed timetables showing which of their stations are penalty fare stations. Why do the penalty fare rules never get enforced though?

yorkie · 24 Dec 2019

Trainfan2019 said:
I don't get how there's all the posters at stations and on trains warning about penalty fares in operation but never enforced. Northern and EMR are good examples of not enforcing penalty fares. EMR usually have network maps in their printed timetables showing which of their stations are penalty fare stations. Why do the penalty fare rules never get enforced though?

I guess you are asking why they don't have more revenue protection officers/inspectors (RPO/RPIs)?

I don't really know, but what I do know is that many legitimate ticketholders on Northern have been incorrectly treated by people working for, or on behalf of, Northern in revenue protection duties, so I wouldn't want to see any more of them unless the company can demonstrate that the training provided is vastly better than it has been.

Based on what I've seen of the ticket issuing facilities at most Northern stations, it would be impossible to legitimately issue Penalty Fares from these stations, as the facilities are often woefully inadequate, with machines that frequently do not work, do not accept cash, force you to plan a journey which excludes the next available train, and... well, loads of problems basically.

Trainfan2019 · 24 Dec 2019

The only RPO/RPIs I ever see are on the EMR services between Sheffield and London. The thing that always surprises me the most is the amount of people who get on the same train as me at Sheffield and buy their ticket onboard. Bearing in mind that Sheffield has a staffed ticket office with long opening hours and a selection of ticket machines at both entrances. There's also mobile tickets which can be bought even on the way to the station but people still choose to try and pay on the train even when their journey is to a barriered station e.g Manchester Piccadilly where they need a ticket to exit the station. I much prefer mobile tickets on all routes as it saves time at the station but before mobile tickets were around, I would still buy my tickets online and collect at the station.

1B85 · 24 Dec 2019

Why do people avoid paying? Sure, there are dishonest people who will evade at every opportunity. But there are also many others who wouldn't normally evade a fare, but for whatever reason choose to do so.

Perhaps somehow they feel that the railway owes them in some way. Perhaps they were seriously inconvenienced by a cancelled, delayed or overcrowded train and the 'delay repay' did not come close to compensating their resultant consequential losses that the railway wouldn't reimburse. Maybe they had to stand for several hours because the previous train didn't run as 'a member of the train crew was unavailable'. Delay repays where the claim is refused because the train actually arrived 30 minutes late, but the system recorded it passing the last signal into the platform at 29 & 1/2...

Or maybe they were screwed by the railway for an innocent mistake. You only have to read 'disputes and prosecutions' every day to see what I mean. Loads of people there going 'Yep, I screwed up by short faring, used someone else's pass, whatever'. But far more people are coming for advice on having been assessed an inordinately high penalty for completely innocent circumstances and the railway has taken the worst view.

Long queues, delays, unable to buy on the train, tried to buy at destination, suspected of fare evasion and fined. Genuinely mislaid purchased ticket, made to pay again, or made to pay the full single fare when they previously had an Advance. People will think, well, I paid £80 more than I should have, so the railway owes me that £80 back, if I can avoid a few fares, we're all square.

bramling · 24 Dec 2019

Typhoon said:
I'm not certain whether it is an exact comparison but Tesco makes it very easy to pay. Besides the regular check-outs my local Tesco has a lane for 'less than 10 items' (or whatever), self scan machines, machines for those who scanned while they shopped and the cigarette counter where you can pay for items - like a Mars bar. Contrast with my local station - ticket office open for 3-and-a-half hours a weekday (but 'staff may not be available during staffing times' - there are days when it is unstaffed), ticket machine (no mention that it only took cards) which has not worked for some time and has now been replaced by a traffic cone. When I used the 'help point' as I needed to pick up a pre-purchased ticket, I was advised to go the next station in the wrong direction. If Tesco made it just as difficult to pay (for instance, if the little Tesco's were largely unstaffed, had a machine by the door which only took cards and didn't always work), I bet shop lifting would be rife!

I am not excusing travelling without a ticket in any way, but once you do it and get away with it, I bet it is easier next time around.

This is a good post. I could go down to my local station the previous evening at a time when the booking office is supposed to be open, find it closed and thus not be able to buy the required ticket. Early the next morning the booking office will still be closed, this time as scheduled, and then upon arrival at destination will be greeted by a queue followed by a pretty moody person in the excess fares window. It’s easy to see why someone wouldn’t bother unless challenged - and if the railway can’t do its bit why should someone be delayed for 10 minutes at the end of the journey?

Having said that, I suspect the vast majority are more quite simply chancing it on the basis that it’s nice to get a freeby.

Killingworth · 24 Dec 2019

It's very simple. Human nature.

Why do fit people going for a 15 mile walk arrive in the Park District in a brand new £40k car and park on the verge when there's an empty car park costing £4 for the day within 200 yards?

Another week they'll come by train and the whole group will carefully obtain promise to pay tickets, their leader saying "you've only a 20% chance of being asked to pay". And those who don't get such a ticket won't be asked to pay any more often. All those I see will have more than one valid credit/debit card they could use.

Sad to say it needs a change in the morality of society. The something for nothing culture has got down to even those who you would expect to know better. Without more vigorous enforcement it's unlikely to change.

yorkie · 24 Dec 2019

Killingworth said:
Another week they'll come by train and the whole group will carefully obtain promise to pay tickets, their leader saying "you've only a 20% chance of being asked to pay". And those who don't get such a ticket won't be asked to pay any more often. All those I see will have more than one valid credit/debit card they could use.

Cash is an accepted payment method; if a passenger arrives at a Northern station with cash (and it's not up to us to enquire about the state of a random person's bank account) then they are doing nothing wrong. If the train company is not providing adequate facilities, the customer cannot be implicated as to blame in any way, would you agree?

ohgoditsjames · 24 Dec 2019

Not read the entire thread but...

Here in the North the guards typically have a ticket machine, why would they have a ticket machine if buying a ticket on the train is a problem?

Darandio · 24 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Not read the entire thread but...

Here in the North the guards typically have a ticket machine, why would they have a ticket machine if buying a ticket on the train is a problem?

Because there are many perfectly valid reasons why you are allowed to buy a ticket on the train.

yorkie · 24 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Not read the entire thread but...

Here in the North the guards typically have a ticket machine, why would they have a ticket machine if buying a ticket on the train is a problem?

The rule is that customers are required to purchase before boarding, where there is an adequate and functioning facility to do so, which sells the ticket(s) they require, using their chosen payment method, and providing there is not a particular reason why the customer is unable to use it (e.g. an accessibility/disability reason)

So, when you consider the multitude of payment methods not accepted by machines, tickets not retailed by those machines, and lack of usability, there will be many instances where people are perfectly entitled to buy on board.

But in theory if someone who has no disability requests a simple ticket using a credit/debit card, then questions could be asked regarding why they did not use the machine. However getting into a discussion may be more trouble than it's worth, especially if the person selling the ticket is supposed to get the doors open promptly at each station stop!

I think we are just covering old ground in this thread though to be honest; I think just about every aspect of this that can be discussed, has been covered already.

Killingworth · 24 Dec 2019

yorkie said:
Cash is an accepted payment method; if a passenger arrives at a Northern station with cash (and it's not up to us to enquire about the state of a random person's bank account) then they are doing nothing wrong. If the train company is not providing adequate facilities, the customer cannot be implicated as to blame in any way, would you agree?

Sorry, I would not agree. In the modern world that's too often used as an excuse to deliberately evade payment. The vast majority of rail passengers carry at least one valid debit/credit card - although many will rely on their phones and Apple or Google Pay.

By taking a promise to pay ticket it's marginally defensible. The lack of enforcement makes it the choice of too many who want to take financial advantage of the option.

I have spent the last 4 weeks doing an outdoor voluntary job that involved accepting payment. At least 80% asked to pay by card and most of the others offered cash because they thought we'd not take cards.

Cash payments require secure machines. Even then the criminal fraternity has no qualms about wrecking a machine costing many thousands to steal what may be only £100. Try to pay at a Peak District National Park car park and its probably by card or phone only. Cash taking machines lasted 6 months at most isolated positions, similar to railway stations at night.

ATMs are being withdrawn because less cash is being used and the costs of providing them is rising, not least because some think it's clever to take a JCB to them and half the building they're in! But that's a digression for another thread

I'd agree that Northern's TVMs leave a lot to be desired. If they listened and acted quickly on receipt of constructive local feedback they'd be much more effective in maximising revenue.

Bletchleyite · 24 Dec 2019

Killingworth said:
Sorry, I would not agree. In the modern world that's too often used as an excuse to deliberately evade payment. The vast majority of rail passengers carry at least one valid debit/credit card - although many will rely on their phones and Apple or Google Pay

I agree, and I think we may be approaching the point, certainly for South East TOCs, where they could genuinely cease to accept cash entirely, provided an arrangement was made to otherwise accept it e.g. by selling tickets at PayPoint shops or something. It would make revenue protection much easier as it would make PFs absolute unless the TVM was also broken.

It worked for London Buses, and the bus is a method of transport disproportionately used by those of lower means who are less likely to have cards.

I'd agree that Northern's TVMs leave a lot to be desired. If they listened and acted quickly on receipt of constructive local feedback they'd be much more effective in maximising revenue.

Yes, they're awful. Not as bad as GWR's big screen ones where you have to kneel on the floor to get anywhere near the card slot, though.

The large low-resolution screen is by far the worst part (a small HD display is much better and easier to use). But the software is terrible too.

yorkie · 24 Dec 2019

Killingworth said:
Sorry, I would not agree. In the modern world that's too often used as an excuse to deliberately evade payment. The vast majority of rail passengers carry at least one valid debit/credit card - although many will rely on their phones and Apple or Google Pay

I don't see how anyone who has cash in hand is deliberately avoiding payment and I can't see any proposals to make a change in the law or conditions to make it so being successful.

Feel free to propose changes to the law and NRCoT but I think that's worthy of a new thread, and even if some people advocate it, I can't see it happening any time soon.

Killingworth said:
Cash payments require secure machines. Even then the criminal fraternity has no qualms about wrecking a machine costing many thousands to steal what may be only £100. Try to pay at a Peak District National Park car park and its probably by card or phone only. Cash taking machines lasted 6 months at most isolated positions, similar to railway stations at night.

ATMs are being withdrawn because less cash is being used and the costs of providing them is rising, not least because some think it's clever to take a JCB to them and half the building they're in! But that's a digression for another thread

I'd agree that Northern's TVMs leave a lot to be desired. If they listened and acted quickly on receipt of constructive local feedback they'd be much more effective in maximising revenue.

We're now getting into speculative territory on how to change machines or methods of working, so please do create a thread if you wish to discuss this further. There is much I'd like to say but it's off topic for this thread.

ohgoditsjames · 24 Dec 2019

Darandio said:
Because there are many perfectly valid reasons why you are allowed to buy a ticket on the train.

Exactly so it’s perfectly reasonable to buy a ticket on the train.

Darandio · 24 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Exactly so it’s perfectly reasonable to buy a ticket on the train.

Well yes, but it's not quite as straightforward as that.

ohgoditsjames · 24 Dec 2019

Darandio said:
Well yes, but it's not quite as straightforward as that.

Maybe, maybe not.

However my personal opinion is if the facility is there to buy a ticket on the train then it is perfectly reasonable to expect that there will be passengers who will want to buy a ticket on the train and they should be allowed to do so without being punished or questioned.

Darandio · 24 Dec 2019

ohgoditsjames said:
Maybe, maybe not.

However my personal opinion is if the facility is there to buy a ticket on the train then it is perfectly reasonable to expect that there will be passengers who will want to buy a ticket on the train and they should be allowed to do so without being punished or questioned.

As a simple example, you arrive at Darlington where there is an open ticket office and several machines available to use before you even reach the barriers. But because the facility is there* on the train you reasonably expect to be let through to buy on there?

*The facility on board may not actually be there, evident by announcements by the guard on three journeys out of there last week where he announced his machine wasn't working!

ohgoditsjames · 24 Dec 2019

Darandio said:
As a simple example, you arrive at Darlington where there is an open ticket office and several machines available to use before you even reach the barriers. But because the facility is there* on the train you reasonably expect to be let through to buy on there?

*The facility on board may not actually be there, evident by announcements by the guard on three journeys out of there last week where he announced his machine wasn't working!

No I do not expect them to let them through the barriers to board the train and buy one.

py_megapixel · 24 Dec 2019

Killingworth said:
Sorry, I would not agree. In the modern world that's too often used as an excuse to deliberately evade payment. The vast majority of rail passengers carry at least one valid debit/credit card - although many will rely on their phones and Apple or Google Pay.

By taking a promise to pay ticket it's marginally defensible. The lack of enforcement makes it the choice of too many who want to take financial advantage of the option.

I disagree with the notion that simply carrying a card is a reason that payment should be accepted only by cards.

Some passengers may be carrying, say, a card for the company they work for or for a joint account, but be making a journey for personal leisure
They may be carrying a card for an account with insufficient funds to pay for their ticket
The ticket machine may have declined their card
They may have coins that they want to use up
They may wish to only put larger transactions on a card to make comparing their records to a bank statement easier

While Promise to Pay makes it very easy not to pay, it seems wrong to blame the passenger for that.
If the guard remains in the rear cab or in a different unit for the entire journey, how is one meant to pay?
With all of the media attention that DOO is getting, how is the occasional passenger even supposed to know that there is a conductor on their train?
My understanding is that cash is always an accepted method of payment, and if no opportunity is posed for one to pay by cash then it can be treated as if no opportunity was posed to pay at all.

People's attitude to buying tickets.

On Moderation

RailUK Forums

On Moderation

Established Member

Member

Member

On Moderation

Established Member

On Moderation

Forum Staff

Established Member

Forum Staff

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Veteran Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member