Caledonian Sleeper

RTT says that the Highlander went via Falkirk this morning yet not long after leaving Edinburgh there was a heavy clunking noise and I'm certain it went over the Forth Bridge. Is RTT wrong?

Bletchleyite said:

It does seem that a good way to avoid all of this would indeed be to have "sittings" (as many other international trains do, e.g. the Canadian) and to have people incentivised in some way to prebook their meal online (which means they can load the right amount of everything).

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Yes, both of these things would seem good ideas (sittings and or pre booking a meal).

I witnessed a lady came to the lounge, explain she was hungry and wanted to eat, but lounge was full, she was advised she could try later (and basically chance it) or have food in her room, meanwhile 2 people opposite me sat at a table - non table seats also full of course - and consumed £5.40 worth of tea for c45 mins, enjoying the view. That lady was really annoyed by the whole experience and I could tell she was never going to be a repeat customer! She was well over 60, and wasn't going to be walking up and down 2 or 3 carriages every 30 mins or so in the hope of space being available, or stand there waiting for it become free, or find it easy to eat in her room. BUT all the press coverage and CS issued PR inc the website makes much of the delicious food etc (which is another matter as it's nice but not exactly GWR Pullman dining - which I suspect passengers who read the blurb might expect to find...).

But the underlying problem is probably that CS see the future of the service as an upmarket train (they can't compete on price compared with budget airlines or off peak day trains maybe - at least not headline price, nor on time - compared with airlines, as many people seem to fail to understand that time spent sleeping is actually time saved) BUT it's not like the Ghan / Canadian or even AMTRAK services where you are on board for days or at least from early evening which generates the time to dine at leisure etc. So this is a really tricky nut to crack as far as I can see, and makes me wonder if CS marketing of that aspect of the service is the wrong approach?

Some cards on the tables saying 'reserved for food service' at least up until 10.30pm or when obvious demand has declined, would be a quick win.

In my case, apprehension about being able to get space meant I ate a small meal in a pizza restaurant near Euston before boarding, to be on the safe side, but had more food, drinks etc in the CS bar as I got a table. Had I been able to pre book a dining place I would have done so, which would have generated more money for CS from me.

I'm sure the reality gap between CS marketing and the actual service delivery experienced by passengers will, if not resolved before too long, stack up problems for SERCO. I have no love for SERCO, but I do for the service, so hope matters can be resolved.

tigerroar said:

RTT says that the Highlander went via Falkirk this morning yet not long after leaving Edinburgh there was a heavy clunking noise and I'm certain it went over the Forth Bridge. Is RTT wrong?

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Went booked route.

RTT says the Fort William portion went to Glasgow via Bathgate, the Inverness portion went via Falkirk unless RTT is wrong

Glenn1969 said:

RTT says the Fort William portion went to Glasgow via Bathgate, the Inverness portion went via Falkirk unless RTT is wrong

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Both went booked route.

WesternLancer said:

I'm sure the reality gap between CS marketing and the actual service delivery experienced by passengers will, if not resolved before too long, stack up problems for SERCO.

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I just got a response from CS about a journey I made recently, where the lounge car was broken and not serving hot food. I'd enquired if they would offer any compensation on my ticket price for this. Their response was that I'd been notified in advance (3 hours in advance) and I could have cancelled my journey if I'd wanted to.

I survived the lack of hot food without any major hardship. But like you say - what is marketed and advertised is relevant. If they create an expectation of a certain experience, they should not be surprised by passengers being very unhappy.

The idea of extra staff who only work between Euston and Preston, and presumably North of Edinburgh, seems reasonable. After all the drivers swap there.
Wouldn't work so well on the Lowlander

InOban said:

The idea of extra staff who only work between Euston and Preston, and presumably North of Edinburgh, seems reasonable. After all the drivers swap there.
Wouldn't work so well on the Lowlander

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Yes, good point, tho the Lowlander's later start might mean there is reduced demand for meals etc before people head to berths, meaning the obv heavy staff workload in the post boarding time window is a little less on that service?

I must admit I have no reason to travel to Scotland, but if I did I don't think I would use the CS service based on the comments here. Poor check-in service, late departures, lack of space in the lounge cars, not being able to order food, or no hot food provisions, poor ride on brand new stock, and toilets that don't work (again something you wouldn't expect on new rolling stock).

Someone mentioned flying. I think If I needed to get to Glasgow for a morning appointment i would opt for the short flight via Easyjet rather than taking the sleeper, and saving myself £55 in the process. Someone also mentioned the "experience" being sold and it's been marketed like a cruise or hotel room on wheels, but at £100 for a basic single berth I would expect a decent service, which doesn't happen according to the stories in this thread

Lounge access is a real problem given all the hotel on wheels nonsense.
If I am in a hotel there is no restrictions on me sitting in a bar or lounge! Unlikely that I will be restricted to sitting in my small room.

malc-c said:

I must admit I have no reason to travel to Scotland, but if I did I don't think I would use the CS service based on the comments here. Poor check-in service, late departures, lack of space in the lounge cars, not being able to order food, or no hot food provisions, poor ride on brand new stock, and toilets that don't work (again something you wouldn't expect on new rolling stock).

Someone mentioned flying. I think If I needed to get to Glasgow for a morning appointment i would opt for the short flight via Easyjet rather than taking the sleeper, and saving myself £55 in the process. Someone also mentioned the "experience" being sold and it's been marketed like a cruise or hotel room on wheels, but at £100 for a basic single berth I would expect a decent service, which doesn't happen according to the stories in this thread

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well, that's the prob with forums like this - inc my own comments I accept, where you focus on the points where it could be done better, but overall it's great. My comments were mostly copied /adapted from my feedback responses to CS survey - yet for the final score questions - would I recommend it and how would I score it overall and compared with alternatives, I gave v high scores, because overall IMHO it is great and anyone who likes train travel should do it if they can.

It would be wrong to draw the conclusion that it is poor overall from these comments.

Plus points that I made was that I even found the old sleepers clean, neat, tidy and smart (apart from perhaps the vestibule carpet which was dirty from heavy use and not replaced as I suspect they thought scrap yard round the corner) - bed clean and comfy, bedding of high quality, food that you could get way beyond any airline quality offer. Toilets all clean and tidy etc etc, staff working hard and doing a good job. They actually have staff eg at check in after all - do easyjet anymore?

WesternLancer said:

Last week on the highlander with an ECML diversion I was in the bar car, train left slowly, stopped at wembley (?) sidings for 15 mins or so, then eventually slowly restarted apparently to most, heading back towards Euston. This caused mass confusion to many in the bar

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Last time I travelled hardly anyone noticed! One woman was confused by all the North London Line stations we passed through, however, as they were closer to her home than London Euston.

WesternLancer said:

The other part of the 'journey experience' that is a problem is 'space management' in the lounge car.

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I've noticed some form of space management happen a couple of times (which isn't bad considering from personal experience there's a 50-50 chance the lounge will be out-of-use).

On one occasion heading north to Inverness the "priority to first-class" rule was strictly enforced - and the staff appeared to be very reluctant to allow people to share a table with strangers (I did share with a couple who turned up later but was asked more than once if it was all right for me), so the lounge seemed pretty empty but people were still being turned away.

Heading south from Aberdeen on another trip I'd booked breakfast in the lounge and was told I had half an hour to eat it and vacate my table as it was needed for others, this despite the fact I thought I'd booked a fairly late breakfast and there seemed to be plenty of spaces available.

WesternLancer said:

I'm sure you have it correct.

Last week on the highlander with an ECML diversion I was in the bar car, train left slowly, stopped at wembley (?) sidings for 15 mins or so, then eventually slowly restarted apparently to most, heading back towards Euston. This caused mass confusion to many in the bar, but staff too busy to explain, and (thankfully IMHO), no pointless tannoy announcements to tell people what was going on, as we were all to schedule as per RTT info. I explained to the people sitting opposite me - but I must have been speaking loud enough for other nearby tables to hear - that the train had to be cleared of Euston, was now reversing onto another route across north london and then heading north, and it didn't matter as we all had beds to sleep in comfortably and the only issue to concern oneself about was where we were in the morning, not where we were now! A lady sitting a table or so away was most grateful for the info and said, 'you should have been making a public announcement'.

It seemed to me that if the train was not going forwards at speed some sort of collective panic was at risk of setting in!!

Maybe twitter has a role, but what's the point in tweeting some remote customer service centre, who can't do anything more than is already being done to get to the destination on time? If you have a time sensitive reason for arrival then surely you would have the good sense to simply find a member of staff (it's generously staffed after all, compared with an OPO commuter train!) tell them, and get some advice, which I'm sure they would do their best to offer.

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Clearly the fact that people were resorting to Twitter last night in a vain attempt to find out what was happening whilst stood on the concourse at Euston Station suggests that customer service whether remote or otherwise is not up to scratch. The same thing happens every time there is a delay - CS tweet profuse apologies and sometimes explain what the reason for the delay (but more often not don't) then never reply to customer tweets. They commence the communication on Twitter not the customers then disappear

On a positive point of accuracy, the two issues of the new boarding process and an overwhelmed Highlander lounge are not unconnected since one of the benefits of taking the hosts off the doors is to put two staff in the lounge ahead of departure.

This has improved speed of service quite a bit.

Stock for the northbound Lowlander has just left Wembley 62 late according to RTT.
Looks like another late boarding, although hopefully away on time at 2350

vlad said:

On one occasion heading north to Inverness the "priority to first-class" rule was strictly enforced - and the staff appeared to be very reluctant to allow people to share a table with strangers (I did share with a couple who turned up later but was asked more than once if it was all right for me), so the lounge seemed pretty empty but people were still being turned away.

Heading south from Aberdeen on another trip I'd booked breakfast in the lounge and was told I had half an hour to eat it and vacate my table as it was needed for others, this despite the fact I thought I'd booked a fairly late breakfast and there seemed to be plenty of spaces available.

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Whilst I think that space management in the lounge cars on the northbound Highlander is desirable, I think that discouraging people from sharing tables with strangers is bizarre. This has happened to me, too, and can be very frustrating when you're hungry. The haggis is fantastic and well worth having (as are the risotto and supreme of chicken), so you're always a bit deflated if there's no space to enjoy it, or even more so if there's a space or two but they won't let you sit in it Some members of staff I know well say that they're being asked by management to discourage people from sharing tables in the lounge because apparently it was a source of complaints (although they agree that it is a daft policy, and some crews rightly ignore it, it seems). Apparently this 'policy' (although I'm not sure how formal or rigidly enforced it is) came in around the time that sharing cabins with strangers was stopped. I can't see why anyone would have complained about sharing a table with a stranger, as most people in a packed Highlander lounge would simply be glad of a space. After all, if you travelled on a day train north (on LNER or VTWC, sometimes for a fare comparable to a CS fare) the chances are you'll be sharing the table with a stranger for most of the way, even in First Class, so I don't see what the problem is. A huge (and very memorable) part of the experience used to be meeting and sharing stories with other travellers in the lounge- why they want to discourage that I don't know as it was something that made the journey such fun (for me anyway). I don't think that the lounge needs to be marketed as a silver-service private dining experience, as that's plainly not what it is (nor what it should be).

I do think that sittings would be a good idea. One which I think would work would be to restrict half the tables/seats for people having full meals when it's busy, at least until about 22.30; this would be better than restricting it to First Class only in my view. Pre-ordering a meal would also help, I think; you used to be able to do this in First Class but it was stopped for some reason.

47271 said:

On a positive point of accuracy, the two issues of the new boarding process and an overwhelmed Highlander lounge are not unconnected since one of the benefits of taking the hosts off the doors is to put two staff in the lounge ahead of departure.

This has improved speed of service quite a bit.

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I hadn't thought of that, but that is a bonus I think.

MrEd said:

Whilst I think that space management in the lounge cars on the northbound Highlander is desirable, I think that discouraging people from sharing tables with strangers is bizarre.

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Interestingly on the Canadian you are allocated to share in the restaurant car - no choice in the matter, you sit where you are told.

Bletchleyite said:

Interestingly on the Canadian you are allocated to share in the restaurant car - no choice in the matter, you sit where you are told.

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The same happens on long distance Amtrak services but there is a separate lounge car

Bletchleyite said:

Interestingly on the Canadian you are allocated to share in the restaurant car - no choice in the matter, you sit where you are told.

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I can see the attractions of that system in a packed Highlander lounge car! It would certainly be a sensible policy given the space constraints of the Caledonian Sleeper lounges.

There seems to be a reasonable consensus on potential suggestions for improvements to the on board service. And to me they seem pretty sensible. (Sittings at busy times, potential to pre-book a sitting, pre-ordering food*, inviting passengers who do not know each other to sit with together, as you might do in a busy bar, presumably at individual passenger’s discretion).

Is there a customer panel / user group or similar where these things can be raised with the CS Management in a formal manner?

* of course this wouldn’t work for some, including Mrs BR. She’d pre order something, then change her mind immediately she saw what someone else was having.

I quite like the idea of food being served to you in your berth room if there was enough space.

Bald Rick said:

Is there a customer panel / user group or similar where these things can be raised with the CS Management in a formal manner?

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They can't even deal with customer service, nevermind suggestions...

What proportion of the total passengers can fit in the lounge at once? (Assuming strangers can share a table)

telstarbox said:

What proportion of the total passengers can fit in the lounge at once? (Assuming strangers can share a table)

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There are three designs of lounge. In the most common design (Mk2f RLOs 6701-6708), there are six tables with loose chairs and four three-person settees. Assuming all seats are taken, these seat 25. In another design (RLO 6700 only), there are five tables with loose chairs and four three-person settees (one side has tables, the other settees), which seats about 23/24. Then there are the two with fixed first class style seating (RFBs 1210 and 1220) which can seat 25 again. So around 25 is the short answer (the ones with fixed seats always look like they can seat more people, but I've just worked out that this is an illusion).

Meanwhile, northbound Highlander passengers are getting a rare trip along the Up Trent Valley Fast Line tonight from Rugby to Lichfield; incident at Atherstone.

JModulo said:

They can't even deal with customer service, nevermind suggestions...

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It’s fair to assume they will be a little overwhelmed at present. I’m sure they have every intention of imrpovimg the customer experience.

vlad said:

Last time I travelled hardly anyone noticed! One woman was confused by all the North London Line stations we passed through, however, as they were closer to her home than London Euston.



I've noticed some form of space management happen a couple of times (which isn't bad considering from personal experience there's a 50-50 chance the lounge will be out-of-use).

On one occasion heading north to Inverness the "priority to first-class" rule was strictly enforced - and the staff appeared to be very reluctant to allow people to share a table with strangers (I did share with a couple who turned up later but was asked more than once if it was all right for me), so the lounge seemed pretty empty but people were still being turned away.

Heading south from Aberdeen on another trip I'd booked breakfast in the lounge and was told I had half an hour to eat it and vacate my table as it was needed for others, this despite the fact I thought I'd booked a fairly late breakfast and there seemed to be plenty of spaces available.

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amusing that the mantra of 'not sharing' berths gets extended to tables....surely the whole point of a convivial atmosphere relates to chatting to people you don't know!

I have to say that I have never really understood why you can't still share if you choose to do so and are happy for the lower cost that might achieve.

After all, the message that 'you no longer have to share' is actually equal to 'we are charging you more so you don't have to share' when it comes to berths.

Mag_seven said:

I quite like the idea of food being served to you in your berth room if there was enough space.

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there is enough space, but it's hard to place the food anywhere and then manage to sit in a good place to eat it whilst the food, plate etc are in a convenient position, mainly as no seat in room.