• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Seat reservation woes... and being slapped on my shoulder by a GWR Director

Status
Not open for further replies.

rdrdrd

Member
Joined
28 Apr 2019
Messages
10
I travel from Bath to London Paddington each day and since the new IET / 800’s were introduced have had consistent luck in getting a seat.

I’m always careful not to sit in a reserved seat as I’ve got lots of work to get on with generally and just want to get on with it. This morning on finding a table of four unoccupied in a carriage seemingly without seat reservations I sat down and got by bag unpacked. A man came along and said ‘you’re in my seat’ and I said ‘I don’t think there are any reservations’, we had a bit of back and forth with him getting angrier and angrier, saying that he was going to move me himself, and my pointing out that this would be assault and that I didn’t want to end up sitting in someone else’s seat. For full context and disclosure it ended up being a lightly loaded train and indeed stayed that way to Paddington.

Having read this forum for the last year or so I’ve ended up with the opinion that in the event of no reservations being indicated that reservations are lost. I know that this isn’t everyone’s position but in my defence and as I’ve said, I travel every day and spend 6 hours travelling to and from work so I feel like I do deserve to sit down especially if there’s not a reservation.

I said if he was unhappy, to get a member of train staff and I could talk to them... at that point bizarrely GWR’s ‘Director of Project Operations’ who I won’t name but he’s googleable rolled up (he travels from bath too but normally in 1st class) and asked what the problem was. The angry reservation holder said that I was in his seat, I explained that if I moved that I’d end up sitting in someone else’s seat - he (the GWR chap) turned distinctly unfriendly at this point. I said to the angry passenger with the reservation that ‘it’s ok he’ll probably upgrade you to first class’ at which point the GWR chap said ‘it’s none of my business’ then slapped his down on my shoulder saying that I’d made my position quite clear and he took the man off...probably to 1st class.

It was the oddest encounter I’ve had on a train and I feel whilst not wanting to make a fuss about, it a fairly senior member of GWR’s management really mishandled something that was fundamental his companies fault - he could have just taken the angry bearded man away and not lectured, patronised and (gently) hit one of his customers who has incidentally spent about an unfathomable amount (over £50k) with his company over the last 3 years.

I think I just wanted to get it off my chest but will be interested in your thoughts. My wife thinks I should complain to GWR for the physical contact.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,382
I travel from Bath to London Paddington each day and since the new IET / 800’s were introduced have had consistent luck in getting a seat.

I’m always careful not to sit in a reserved seat as I’ve got lots of work to get on with generally and just want to get on with it. This morning on finding a table of four unoccupied in a carriage seemingly without seat reservations I sat down and got by bag unpacked. A man came along and said ‘you’re in my seat’ and I said ‘I don’t think there are any reservations’, we had a bit of back and forth with him getting angrier and angrier, saying that he was going to move me himself, and my pointing out that this would be assault and that I didn’t want to end up sitting in someone else’s seat. For full context and disclosure it ended up being a lightly loaded train and indeed stayed that way to Paddington.

Having read this forum for the last year or so I’ve ended up with the opinion that in the event of no reservations being indicated that reservations are lost. I know that this isn’t everyone’s position but in my defence and as I’ve said, I travel every day and spend 6 hours travelling to and from work so I feel like I do deserve to sit down especially if there’s not a reservation.

I said if he was unhappy, to get a member of train staff and I could talk to them... at that point bizarrely GWR’s ‘Director of Project Operations’ who I won’t name but he’s googleable rolled up (he travels from bath too but normally in 1st class) and asked what the problem was. The angry reservation holder said that I was in his seat, I explained that if I moved that I’d end up sitting in someone else’s seat - he (the GWR chap) turned distinctly unfriendly at this point. I said to the angry passenger with the reservation that ‘it’s ok he’ll probably upgrade you to first class’ at which point the GWR chap said ‘it’s none of my business’ then slapped his down on my shoulder saying that I’d made my position quite clear and he took the man off...probably to 1st class.

It was the oddest encounter I’ve had on a train and I feel whilst not wanting to make a fuss about, it a fairly senior member of GWR’s management really mishandled something that was fundamental his companies fault - he could have just taken the angry bearded man away and not lectured, patronised and (gently) hit one of his customers who has incidentally spent about an unfathomable amount (over £50k) with his company over the last 3 years.

I think I just wanted to get it off my chest but will be interested in your thoughts. My wife thinks I should complain to GWR for the physical contact.

Well, personally ...

If there are no seat reservations displayed I would consider reservations to be void.

BUT if the other passenger shows me a valid reservation AND there are other seats available then I would move.

[ The views of a "Director of Project Operations", whatever that means, I would consider irrelevant. He's not the Train Manager, nor - presumably - in any sense their line manager. ]
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,519
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
In my experience GWR (and ScotRail, for that matter) guards are very good at announcing that if the reservations are not showing or placed they are not in force, and this does seem to be GWR's policy. You'd think a senior member of staff who commutes daily on their services would know that. It isn't every TOC's policy - VT and XC both have the policy that the reservations still apply regardless. I do wish TOCs would put up signs to the effect of the policy given that in my experience reservations seem to fail more often than not these days.

With regard to the other allegation (I think we have to be proper about this as he's effectively been named even if not directly), if true you would have the option of reporting the alleged assault to the Police for their investigation, or indeed simply making a formal complaint to GWR about it.
 

rdrdrd

Member
Joined
28 Apr 2019
Messages
10
In my experience GWR (and ScotRail, for that matter) guards are very good at announcing that if the reservations are not showing or placed they are not in force, and this does seem to be GWR's policy. You'd think a senior member of staff who commutes daily on their services would know that. It isn't every TOC's policy - VT and XC both have the policy that the reservations still apply regardless. I do wish TOCs would put up signs to the effect of the policy given that in my experience reservations seem to fail more often than not these days.

With regard to the other allegation (I think we have to be proper about this as he's effectively been named even if not directly), if true you would have the option of reporting the alleged assault to the Police for their investigation, or indeed simply making a formal complaint to GWR about it.

In terms of the other allegation... the on-train CCTV would support my side of the story, but I don’t think any harm was done and the formal complaint would seem petty and mean.
 

Parallel

Established Member
Joined
9 Dec 2013
Messages
3,927
From GWR’s own twitter page:

‘Seat reservations aren’t valid if they aren’t in place’...

I’d make a complaint about this, so the manager can be briefed on GWR’s own policy.
 

Attachments

  • D64CDDDA-6AD4-4866-A2BC-F40361FBF3D0.png
    D64CDDDA-6AD4-4866-A2BC-F40361FBF3D0.png
    203.5 KB · Views: 135

aleggatta

Member
Joined
28 Sep 2015
Messages
537
you could report it as 'an incident' caused by the failure of the seat reservation system and questioning the manner of the senior member of staff (he probably isn't used to dealing with customers and keeping to his personal space), and maybe request refresh or review of any staff brief's given to train crew advising what they should do in this situation. you should not have had to be put through this unpleasant situation but it seems more of a learning point for GWR than a incident that requires reprimand?
 

rdrdrd

Member
Joined
28 Apr 2019
Messages
10
From GWR’s own twitter page:

‘Seat reservations aren’t valid if they aren’t in place’...

I’d make a complaint about this, so the manager can be briefed on GWR’s own policy.

That’s interesting. I’m only cross with him because of the way he spoke to me to be honest...
 

rdrdrd

Member
Joined
28 Apr 2019
Messages
10
you could report it as 'an incident' caused by the failure of the seat reservation system and questioning the manner of the senior member of staff (he probably isn't used to dealing with customers and keeping to his personal space), and maybe request refresh or review of any staff brief's given to train crew advising what they should do in this situation. you should not have had to be put through this unpleasant situation but it seems more of a learning point for GWR than a incident that requires reprimand?

I think you’re right. I was somewhere between upset and seething for at least the next 20 minutes or so and my fellow passengers seemed rather amused at the spectacle... but it wasn’t very pleasant
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,519
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Maybe you can manage to convince GWR that a sign stating what the policy is in the event of reservations not being displayed would be a good idea. The mind boggles as to why this has not been done by any TOC so far. It barely matters what the policy is, it just needs to be made clear what it is, a bit like those old Parisian signs regarding the default state of the window in event of dispute. (We could do with that for blinds on trains that have them, too).
 

rdrdrd

Member
Joined
28 Apr 2019
Messages
10
I’ve just re-read my original post and I’ve missed the word hand out.

So he slapped his hand down on my shoulder... rather than anything else which could be worse.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,429
Location
Yorkshire
I'd complain if I were you.
I fail to see how anyone "attacked" you.
A predictable response of course, but you completely miss the point.

If I did that to a customer while appearing to represent an employer in any of the wide range of jobs I have done, I'd expect to be at least suspended while the matter was investigated, and would not be surprised to be sacked. And rightly so.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,685
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
I travel from Bath to London Paddington each day and since the new IET / 800’s were introduced have had consistent luck in getting a seat.

I’m always careful not to sit in a reserved seat as I’ve got lots of work to get on with generally and just want to get on with it. This morning on finding a table of four unoccupied in a carriage seemingly without seat reservations I sat down and got by bag unpacked. A man came along and said ‘you’re in my seat’ and I said ‘I don’t think there are any reservations’, we had a bit of back and forth with him getting angrier and angrier, saying that he was going to move me himself, and my pointing out that this would be assault and that I didn’t want to end up sitting in someone else’s seat. For full context and disclosure it ended up being a lightly loaded train and indeed stayed that way to Paddington.

Having read this forum for the last year or so I’ve ended up with the opinion that in the event of no reservations being indicated that reservations are lost. I know that this isn’t everyone’s position but in my defence and as I’ve said, I travel every day and spend 6 hours travelling to and from work so I feel like I do deserve to sit down especially if there’s not a reservation.

I said if he was unhappy, to get a member of train staff and I could talk to them... at that point bizarrely GWR’s ‘Director of Project Operations’ who I won’t name but he’s googleable rolled up (he travels from bath too but normally in 1st class) and asked what the problem was. The angry reservation holder said that I was in his seat, I explained that if I moved that I’d end up sitting in someone else’s seat - he (the GWR chap) turned distinctly unfriendly at this point. I said to the angry passenger with the reservation that ‘it’s ok he’ll probably upgrade you to first class’ at which point the GWR chap said ‘it’s none of my business’ then slapped his down on my shoulder saying that I’d made my position quite clear and he took the man off...probably to 1st class.

It was the oddest encounter I’ve had on a train and I feel whilst not wanting to make a fuss about, it a fairly senior member of GWR’s management really mishandled something that was fundamental his companies fault - he could have just taken the angry bearded man away and not lectured, patronised and (gently) hit one of his customers who has incidentally spent about an unfathomable amount (over £50k) with his company over the last 3 years.

I think I just wanted to get it off my chest but will be interested in your thoughts. My wife thinks I should complain to GWR for the physical contact.

I’d be tempted to complain, keeping it simple and allowing the on-train CCTV to verify.
 

Busaholic

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Jun 2014
Messages
14,029
Slapping a hand down on a shoulder could be construed as assault, and people have been charged with such on much less physical contact than that. It is actually far more probable that someone in an official position would be investigated for this than a random member of the public.
 

Master29

Established Member
Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
1,967
Many years ago on BR when there were no paper reservations I remember regularly being turfed out of a seat and indeed myself asking people to move when I had a reservation. I am, of course talking of LHCS pre and during HST operation. It seemed to be just a done thing or was this regulation perhaps during BR`s tenure?
 

47271

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2015
Messages
2,983
It reads like a completely inappropriate intervention by a senior manager, or someone who claims to be a senior manager, he might just have been a loony, so needs to be drawn to the attention to the operator. But keep it calm and factual, referring to the company's policies as you understand them.

Knowing GWR though, you'll probably just get twaddle back. Let us know.

In my experience GWR (and ScotRail, for that matter) guards are very good at announcing that if the reservations are not showing or placed they are not in force
To say that you obviously haven't travelled much on Scotrail intercity services since the HSTs started their hokey cokey introduction in December!
 

Bromley boy

Established Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
4,611
I said to the angry passenger with the reservation that ‘it’s ok he’ll probably upgrade you to first class’ at which point the GWR chap said ‘it’s none of my business’ then slapped his down on my shoulder saying that I’d made my position quite clear and he took the man off...probably to 1st class.

On the face of it I can certainly see where you’re coming from. I would certainly recommend reporting it so that CCTV can be reviewed.

It does sound like a strange encounter. When you say “slapped his [hand] down”, could you be misconstruing a friendly/jokey tap on the shoulder?

When he said “it’s none of my business”, do you mean he was he referring to himself in the first person or to you in the second person?! It’s surprising that someone in a TOC management role would get involved in disputes of this kind which would be far better resolved by the guard.

You say he turned “distinctly unfriendly”, what else did he actually say?

If I did that to a customer while appearing to represent an employer in any of the wide range of jobs I have done, I'd expect to be at least suspended while the matter was investigated, and would not be surprised to be sacked. And rightly so.

Nobody posting on here here knows enough to draw that conclusion, having not witnessed what happened.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,429
Location
Yorkshire
Nobody posting on here here knows enough to draw that conclusion, having not witnessed what happened.
It's not a "conclusion": it's a statement regarding what I would expect to happen, if I had done the action that was described, to a customer, in any job I've ever done.
 

Bromley boy

Established Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
4,611
It's not a "conclusion": it's a statement regarding what I would expect to happen, if I had done the action that was described, to a customer, in any job I've ever done.

But I’m sure you would expect your bosses not to take a description of events at face value, and to review all available evidence, before deciding on a response.
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,752
Location
York
Maybe you can manage to convince GWR that a sign stating what the policy is in the event of reservations not being displayed would be a good idea. The mind boggles as to why this has not been done by any TOC so far. It barely matters what the policy is, it just needs to be made clear what it is, a bit like those old Parisian signs regarding the default state of the window in event of dispute. (We could do with that for blinds on trains that have them, too).
There needs to be a very well publicised national rule about this, formulated in a single national fashion, displayed on stations, and printed on everything with anything to do with reservations. The way TOCs have all gone their own individual happy ways over the last 25 years has just created chaos for passengers and scope for endless confrontation, with lots of ill feeling about the ways in which railway staff do or do not step in to help one side or the other. Worst of all in my opinion are XC with their "Reservations are not makred today. Please be prepared to move if someone with a reservation for the seat you are sitting in claims their seat." That, of course, quite on top of teh accursed last-minute reservation system.
 

leightonbd

Member
Joined
4 Oct 2013
Messages
321
Location
Edinburgh (South Sub)
Hands on is a cardinal sin, IMO. If that’s how the gent in question behaves at work, it’s only a matter of time before he faces a disciplinary in any event.

That’s effectively a separate issue to the core one: the argument about reservation or not, and I think you’d be perfectly entitled to contact the train operator and ask whether you did the right thing in staying put and asking the other party to call a member of staff (I don’t see what else you could have done, short of giving in to bullying).
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,429
Location
Yorkshire
But I’m sure you would expect your bosses not to take a description of events at face value, and to review all available evidence, before deciding on a response.
Of course, but ultimately if I did the actions that have been described to a customer I wouldn't expect to keep my job once that process was complete.

I wouldn't touch someone unless there was very good reason; if I have to intervene physically (which does happen from time to time) I'd be writing a statement about it and explaining what the threat from that person was.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,519
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Many years ago on BR when there were no paper reservations I remember regularly being turfed out of a seat and indeed myself asking people to move when I had a reservation. I am, of course talking of LHCS pre and during HST operation. It seemed to be just a done thing or was this regulation perhaps during BR`s tenure?

So far as I recall in BR days the rule was if not placed they don't apply.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,519
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
To say that you obviously haven't travelled much on Scotrail intercity services since the HSTs started their hokey cokey introduction in December!

I used 3 different ScotRail HSTs at the weekend (for relatively short journeys). On none of them had the reservations been placed, and on all of them an announcement was made shortly after boarding that that meant they didn't apply.
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,073
Location
Powys
I'd complain if I were you.

A predictable response of course, but you completely miss the point.

If I did that to a customer while appearing to represent an employer in any of the wide range of jobs I have done, I'd expect to be at least suspended while the matter was investigated, and would not be surprised to be sacked. And rightly so.

I refer you to post number 5, made by the member who made the original post.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,685
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
But I’m sure you would expect your bosses not to take a description of events at face value, and to review all available evidence, before deciding on a response.

Precisely - for any complaint regarding a member of staff there’s quite a process to follow. CCTV would be reviewed and the member of staff interviewed to obtain their version of events.

Any decision to suspend a member of staff would probably only happen after this, as history has a habit of showing that CCTV often portrays a different version events to what a complainant has alleged (I’m not suggesting this is the case for the OP, just that it’s sufficiently often the case that allegations have to be regarded as just that until some harder evidence is forthcoming).

The only exception is if an allegation is safety-related, but even then it will normally be a case of try and do a technical investigation ASAP rather than standing someone down simply based on a complaint. Unfortunately *most* passenger complaints tend to be either untrue, exaggerated or what I might politely term as “unrealistic expectations”, but every now and then a genuine one does appear.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top