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GWR Class 800

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northernbelle

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10 Oct 2018
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680
Exactly. Passengers won't carry on using the service forever. How many missed flights/ hospital appointments/ days out etc etc does it take for someone to say enough is enough. The whole thing works well on paper but it just doesn't in the real world of the railway. If the civil servants that dreamed up these schemes actually got out of the South East once in a while the whole thing wouldn't of got off the drawing board.

And regarding running a 9 coach train in Cornwall- no it would not always be full but on what route is a train at full capacity throughout? Surely running lightly loaded trains should give gwr a chance to really market the extra seats with some cheap tickets and actually grow the business...

Portion working has worked well on the Southern region day in, day out for many decades. The concept is generally sound - it is up to the train manufacturers to meet the specification of being able to do so, not for GWR to cart fresh air around in case Hitachi can't provide what is being paid for.
 
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Thunderer

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29 Nov 2013
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429
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So moving on from me whining about seats.

On an 800 at the minute and the windows are decidedly mucky. I've noticed this of a few of them compared with HSTs. Is there a problem with putting them through one of the washers?
I've travelled on numerous 800/0's, 800/3's and an 802/1 in the last few weeks and the external side of the windows have been grainy and dirty. Not good for a new fleet of trains eh? Looks like they don't get externally washed effectively at the overnight depots - I wonder why?
 

The Ham

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Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,322
Exactly. Passengers won't carry on using the service forever. How many missed flights/ hospital appointments/ days out etc etc does it take for someone to say enough is enough. The whole thing works well on paper but it just doesn't in the real world of the railway. If the civil servants that dreamed up these schemes actually got out of the South East once in a while the whole thing wouldn't of got off the drawing board.

And regarding running a 9 coach train in Cornwall- no it would not always be full but on what route is a train at full capacity throughout? Surely running lightly loaded trains should give gwr a chance to really market the extra seats with some cheap tickets and actually grow the business...

How many times had this sort of failure happened?

I notice that every few days that you post about one service which had had a problem, but how many services work fine?

If it's 1/200 then it's not really a big problem, is it's 1/10 then that's more of a concern.

However highlighting individual services every few days doesn't provide this data.
 

irish_rail

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How many times had this sort of failure happened?

I notice that every few days that you post about one service which had had a problem, but how many services work fine?

If it's 1/200 then it's not really a big problem, is it's 1/10 then that's more of a concern.

However highlighting individual services every few days doesn't provide this data.
Well it's about 25percent of services are meeting with a delay according to a manager at Plymouth. Anecdotally that seems on the low side , if including any late departure I'd say it's more like a third are getting delays. And you won't speak to a driver at Plymouth or Penzance who hasn't got a story of their personal BIG coupling delay.....
 

Dai Corner

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6,348
Well it's about 25percent of services are meeting with a delay according to a manager at Plymouth. Anecdotally that seems on the low side , if including any late departure I'd say it's more like a third are getting delays. And you won't speak to a driver at Plymouth or Penzance who hasn't got a story of their personal BIG coupling delay.....

An analysis by platform, sub-class, driver depot, time driver trained and who the instructor was etc might highlight a pattern and help reach a solution.
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
680
I've travelled on numerous 800/0's, 800/3's and an 802/1 in the last few weeks and the external side of the windows have been grainy and dirty. Not good for a new fleet of trains eh? Looks like they don't get externally washed effectively at the overnight depots - I wonder why?

There has been a problem (now fixed) with the wash plants.

There is now a programme of heavy hand cleaning going on which should see all units returned to 'as new' cleanliness over the next few weeks.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,820
Location
Epsom
Interesting .. didn't Hitachi insist on fitting sliding doors because of their reliability?

In the case of 800 307, I suspect being unable to release any of the doors at all has more to do with the control system than the type of door?
 

Master29

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Joined
19 Feb 2015
Messages
1,969
So let's add another 4 or 5 needless coaches rather than fix the problem then!
If you`ve travelled on 1A82 regularly enough you`d no how busy this train get`s through Cornwall. It`s ridiculous that it leaves Penzance only as a 5 and equally ridiculous that this is continually defended. I can think of no acceptable explanation for what is a busy train at most times. Some trains I can accept but not the Cornish Riviera and certainly not this time of year. What is wrong with GWR.
 

JN114

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2005
Messages
3,354
It’s a matter of practicality.

Departures off Long Rock in the morning:-

5A75 9-802, works 0505 London
5C53 4x 2-150, splits for the 0519 Truro (4) and the 0658 Ives (4)
5E12 4-HST, works 0600 Exeter
5A77 5-802, works 0541 London
5A79 9-802, works 0647 London
5S42 5-221, works 0635 Glasgow
5P60 4-HST, works 0730 Plymouth
5A81 5-802, works 0741 London
5S47 5-221, works 0837 Glasgow
5A82 5-802, works 0900 London

The 9 car for 5A75 is formed off the last arrival, blocks everything else in and cannot be serviced. It has to go back out on the first departure.

That leaves just one 9 car “available” for the remaining departures. Of those I’d say the 0647 is much busier through Cornwall than the 0900. There isn’t room on Long Rock for either a 3rd 9 car (there isn’t really room for 2), or an additional set to make the 0900 a 10 car - there just aren’t the roads on the depot, it’s not Old Oak Common.

So options - you could, theoretically, run a 5 (or a 9) down from Plymouth to attach to the 0900 - as happens with the 1000. But it would have to run down ahead of the sleeper, which would cut into engineering time, engineering time which becomes more critical as the service becomes more intense on the Cornish mainline. It also relies on there being a set available at Plymouth, with minimum contracted down periods on depots for the 80x fleet, I’m not sure there’s an early enough arrival onto Laira to get a set out to run down ahead of the sleeper for the 0900.

Or you could leave a set in the platform at Penzance for the 0541, making more room on the depot - but you’d have to get that set to Penzance somehow and you’d effectively lose a platform while it was stabled there.

At the end of the day the 0900 is busy through Cornwall, but let’s not over-egg its popularity. It isn’t leaving passengers behind as a 5 car. And if, as suggested above, efforts are concentrated on fixing the problem - namely issues coupling at Plymouth; then long term there shouldn’t be issues of it running 5v10 from Plymouth.

In an ideal world, if there were more 9s in the fleet; and if more 9s could be stabled down at Penzance then yes, more of the Cornish services would and should be 9s. But that isn’t where we are. The best has to be made of the fleet that exists. And while it may seem like Cornwall gets a raw deal with portion working compared to the North Cotswolds or Swansea - which equally don’t “deserve” all of the full-length trains they get - the difference is Plymouth station. Neither Oxford nor Cardiff are particularly conducive to portion working, with only 1 and 2 full length up platforms respectively for trains to attach in; and a much, much more intensive service off those platforms. The more relaxed pace of Cornish train services means a huge station like Plymouth really isn’t used to its full potential - which incidentally was designed to handle portion working of through trains to/from Cornwall.

Although the 800s have been in service for 18 months; portion working at Plymouth was much later to the party; the West of England services being the last to come over from HST operation. It happens day in, day out at Paddington with very few issues - anecdotally 2 or 3 a week from dozens upon dozens of coupling and uncoupling events there. The issues seem very much centred on Plymouth unfortunately. But it used to be awful at Swansea, with the daily couple/uncouple of the Carmarthen frequently failing. Hitachi and the local drivers team worked together to iron out what were train-borne issues; what was drivers’ technique and what was other factors - and now I can’t recall the last coupling/uncoupling failure at Swansea. It’ll get better with time; we just need to all be on the same page.
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
680
It’s a matter of practicality.

Departures off Long Rock in the morning:-

5A75 9-802, works 0505 London
5C53 4x 2-150, splits for the 0519 Truro (4) and the 0658 Ives (4)
5E12 4-HST, works 0600 Exeter
5A77 5-802, works 0541 London
5A79 9-802, works 0647 London
5S42 5-221, works 0635 Glasgow
5P60 4-HST, works 0730 Plymouth
5A81 5-802, works 0741 London
5S47 5-221, works 0837 Glasgow
5A82 5-802, works 0900 London

The 9 car for 5A75 is formed off the last arrival, blocks everything else in and cannot be serviced. It has to go back out on the first departure.

That leaves just one 9 car “available” for the remaining departures. Of those I’d say the 0647 is much busier through Cornwall than the 0900. There isn’t room on Long Rock for either a 3rd 9 car (there isn’t really room for 2), or an additional set to make the 0900 a 10 car - there just aren’t the roads on the depot, it’s not Old Oak Common.

So options - you could, theoretically, run a 5 (or a 9) down from Plymouth to attach to the 0900 - as happens with the 1000. But it would have to run down ahead of the sleeper, which would cut into engineering time, engineering time which becomes more critical as the service becomes more intense on the Cornish mainline. It also relies on there being a set available at Plymouth, with minimum contracted down periods on depots for the 80x fleet, I’m not sure there’s an early enough arrival onto Laira to get a set out to run down ahead of the sleeper for the 0900.

Or you could leave a set in the platform at Penzance for the 0541, making more room on the depot - but you’d have to get that set to Penzance somehow and you’d effectively lose a platform while it was stabled there.

At the end of the day the 0900 is busy through Cornwall, but let’s not over-egg its popularity. It isn’t leaving passengers behind as a 5 car. And if, as suggested above, efforts are concentrated on fixing the problem - namely issues coupling at Plymouth; then long term there shouldn’t be issues of it running 5v10 from Plymouth.

In an ideal world, if there were more 9s in the fleet; and if more 9s could be stabled down at Penzance then yes, more of the Cornish services would and should be 9s. But that isn’t where we are. The best has to be made of the fleet that exists. And while it may seem like Cornwall gets a raw deal with portion working compared to the North Cotswolds or Swansea - which equally don’t “deserve” all of the full-length trains they get - the difference is Plymouth station. Neither Oxford nor Cardiff are particularly conducive to portion working, with only 1 and 2 full length up platforms respectively for trains to attach in; and a much, much more intensive service off those platforms. The more relaxed pace of Cornish train services means a huge station like Plymouth really isn’t used to its full potential - which incidentally was designed to handle portion working of through trains to/from Cornwall.

Although the 800s have been in service for 18 months; portion working at Plymouth was much later to the party; the West of England services being the last to come over from HST operation. It happens day in, day out at Paddington with very few issues - anecdotally 2 or 3 a week from dozens upon dozens of coupling and uncoupling events there. The issues seem very much centred on Plymouth unfortunately. But it used to be awful at Swansea, with the daily couple/uncouple of the Carmarthen frequently failing. Hitachi and the local drivers team worked together to iron out what were train-borne issues; what was drivers’ technique and what was other factors - and now I can’t recall the last coupling/uncoupling failure at Swansea. It’ll get better with time; we just need to all be on the same page.

Nail hit firmly on head - completely agree with all of this.
 

Thunderer

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2013
Messages
429
Location
South Wales
There has been a problem (now fixed) with the wash plants.

There is now a programme of heavy hand cleaning going on which should see all units returned to 'as new' cleanliness over the next few weeks.
Thats good to know, but surely it will take ages to clean every window by hand on just one 9 coach unit? Like painting the Forth Bridge with a Toothbrush ha...
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,820
Location
Epsom
Or you could leave a set in the platform at Penzance for the 0541, making more room on the depot - but you’d have to get that set to Penzance somehow and you’d effectively lose a platform while it was stabled there.

Could one be stabled in the siding next to the station?

The one the track recording train berths in when it's spending any length of time there?

This siding?

Aug 2017 212.JPG Aug 2017 290.JPG
 

Railperf

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
2,941
It’s a matter of practicality.

Departures off Long Rock in the morning:-

5A75 9-802, works 0505 London
5C53 4x 2-150, splits for the 0519 Truro (4) and the 0658 Ives (4)
5E12 4-HST, works 0600 Exeter
5A77 5-802, works 0541 London
5A79 9-802, works 0647 London
5S42 5-221, works 0635 Glasgow
5P60 4-HST, works 0730 Plymouth
5A81 5-802, works 0741 London
5S47 5-221, works 0837 Glasgow
5A82 5-802, works 0900 London

The 9 car for 5A75 is formed off the last arrival, blocks everything else in and cannot be serviced. It has to go back out on the first departure.

That leaves just one 9 car “available” for the remaining departures. Of those I’d say the 0647 is much busier through Cornwall than the 0900. There isn’t room on Long Rock for either a 3rd 9 car (there isn’t really room for 2), or an additional set to make the 0900 a 10 car - there just aren’t the roads on the depot, it’s not Old Oak Common.

So options - you could, theoretically, run a 5 (or a 9) down from Plymouth to attach to the 0900 - as happens with the 1000. But it would have to run down ahead of the sleeper, which would cut into engineering time, engineering time which becomes more critical as the service becomes more intense on the Cornish mainline. It also relies on there being a set available at Plymouth, with minimum contracted down periods on depots for the 80x fleet, I’m not sure there’s an early enough arrival onto Laira to get a set out to run down ahead of the sleeper for the 0900.

Or you could leave a set in the platform at Penzance for the 0541, making more room on the depot - but you’d have to get that set to Penzance somehow and you’d effectively lose a platform while it was stabled there.

At the end of the day the 0900 is busy through Cornwall, but let’s not over-egg its popularity. It isn’t leaving passengers behind as a 5 car. And if, as suggested above, efforts are concentrated on fixing the problem - namely issues coupling at Plymouth; then long term there shouldn’t be issues of it running 5v10 from Plymouth.

In an ideal world, if there were more 9s in the fleet; and if more 9s could be stabled down at Penzance then yes, more of the Cornish services would and should be 9s. But that isn’t where we are. The best has to be made of the fleet that exists. And while it may seem like Cornwall gets a raw deal with portion working compared to the North Cotswolds or Swansea - which equally don’t “deserve” all of the full-length trains they get - the difference is Plymouth station. Neither Oxford nor Cardiff are particularly conducive to portion working, with only 1 and 2 full length up platforms respectively for trains to attach in; and a much, much more intensive service off those platforms. The more relaxed pace of Cornish train services means a huge station like Plymouth really isn’t used to its full potential - which incidentally was designed to handle portion working of through trains to/from Cornwall.

Although the 800s have been in service for 18 months; portion working at Plymouth was much later to the party; the West of England services being the last to come over from HST operation. It happens day in, day out at Paddington with very few issues - anecdotally 2 or 3 a week from dozens upon dozens of coupling and uncoupling events there. The issues seem very much centred on Plymouth unfortunately. But it used to be awful at Swansea, with the daily couple/uncouple of the Carmarthen frequently failing. Hitachi and the local drivers team worked together to iron out what were train-borne issues; what was drivers’ technique and what was other factors - and now I can’t recall the last coupling/uncoupling failure at Swansea. It’ll get better with time; we just need to all be on the same page.
Could the performance modifications being carried out to the Class 800's to enable them to match Class 802's mean more 9-car 800s could now be used in Cornwall?
 
Last edited:

The Ham

Established Member
Joined
6 Jul 2012
Messages
10,322
It’s a matter of practicality.

Departures off Long Rock in the morning:-

5A75 9-802, works 0505 London
5C53 4x 2-150, splits for the 0519 Truro (4) and the 0658 Ives (4)
5E12 4-HST, works 0600 Exeter
5A77 5-802, works 0541 London
5A79 9-802, works 0647 London
5S42 5-221, works 0635 Glasgow
5P60 4-HST, works 0730 Plymouth
5A81 5-802, works 0741 London
5S47 5-221, works 0837 Glasgow
5A82 5-802, works 0900 London

The 9 car for 5A75 is formed off the last arrival, blocks everything else in and cannot be serviced. It has to go back out on the first departure.

That leaves just one 9 car “available” for the remaining departures. Of those I’d say the 0647 is much busier through Cornwall than the 0900. There isn’t room on Long Rock for either a 3rd 9 car (there isn’t really room for 2), or an additional set to make the 0900 a 10 car - there just aren’t the roads on the depot, it’s not Old Oak Common.

So options - you could, theoretically, run a 5 (or a 9) down from Plymouth to attach to the 0900 - as happens with the 1000. But it would have to run down ahead of the sleeper, which would cut into engineering time, engineering time which becomes more critical as the service becomes more intense on the Cornish mainline. It also relies on there being a set available at Plymouth, with minimum contracted down periods on depots for the 80x fleet, I’m not sure there’s an early enough arrival onto Laira to get a set out to run down ahead of the sleeper for the 0900.

Or you could leave a set in the platform at Penzance for the 0541, making more room on the depot - but you’d have to get that set to Penzance somehow and you’d effectively lose a platform while it was stabled there.

At the end of the day the 0900 is busy through Cornwall, but let’s not over-egg its popularity. It isn’t leaving passengers behind as a 5 car. And if, as suggested above, efforts are concentrated on fixing the problem - namely issues coupling at Plymouth; then long term there shouldn’t be issues of it running 5v10 from Plymouth.

In an ideal world, if there were more 9s in the fleet; and if more 9s could be stabled down at Penzance then yes, more of the Cornish services would and should be 9s. But that isn’t where we are. The best has to be made of the fleet that exists. And while it may seem like Cornwall gets a raw deal with portion working compared to the North Cotswolds or Swansea - which equally don’t “deserve” all of the full-length trains they get - the difference is Plymouth station. Neither Oxford nor Cardiff are particularly conducive to portion working, with only 1 and 2 full length up platforms respectively for trains to attach in; and a much, much more intensive service off those platforms. The more relaxed pace of Cornish train services means a huge station like Plymouth really isn’t used to its full potential - which incidentally was designed to handle portion working of through trains to/from Cornwall.

Although the 800s have been in service for 18 months; portion working at Plymouth was much later to the party; the West of England services being the last to come over from HST operation. It happens day in, day out at Paddington with very few issues - anecdotally 2 or 3 a week from dozens upon dozens of coupling and uncoupling events there. The issues seem very much centred on Plymouth unfortunately. But it used to be awful at Swansea, with the daily couple/uncouple of the Carmarthen frequently failing. Hitachi and the local drivers team worked together to iron out what were train-borne issues; what was drivers’ technique and what was other factors - and now I can’t recall the last coupling/uncoupling failure at Swansea. It’ll get better with time; we just need to all be on the same page.

If capacity were to be a problem in the future one possible option could be to run a new service from Plymouth to Truro to then meet the service from Penzance to then run as a 10 coach service from that point.

As by starting at Truro you could run it behind the sleeper whilst providing capacity for where the train is likely to be at its busiest.
 

JonathanH

Veteran Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
18,758
Could the performance modifications being carried out to the Class 800's to enable them to match Class 802's mean more 9-car 800s could now be used in Cornwall?

No. You still have the problem of not being able to stable the 800s in the West Country - there are very few diagrams to the West Country that don't start or end there (except on Sunday which is when 800s are most likely to visit).
 

Pete_uk

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28 Jan 2017
Messages
1,252
Location
Stroud, Glos
I'm on 1G11 Pad to Cheltenham, carriage J and it's vibrating and banging quite unsatisfactory, for a man, as I can't speak for the women.
 

Clarence Yard

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18 Dec 2014
Messages
2,487
Is it true that there are 30 short forms today?

At start of service there were 5 circuits as 5 for 9 and 1 circuit as 5 for 10 with 30 potential services affected. Hopefully there will be some improvement in availability during the day so train formations can be boosted later.

There were 14 cl.800 sets stopped this morning, 5 at NP and 9 at SG. Unusually, there are quite a few 9 car cl.800 sets stopped today.

Class 802 sets look fine for today - bang on target availability.
 

Mag_seven

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here to eternity
According to GWR JourneyCheck:

17:03 London Paddington to Penzance due 22:28
Facilities on the 17:03 London Paddington to Penzance due 22:28.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.
Will be formed of 5 coaches instead of 10.

Last Updated:07/06/2019 09:31

I hope they manage to find an additional set for this (to make it up to 10) as down West of England services on a Friday evening tend to be rammed.
 

jimm

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2012
Messages
5,231
And regarding running a 9 coach train in Cornwall- no it would not always be full but on what route is a train at full capacity throughout? Surely running lightly loaded trains should give gwr a chance to really market the extra seats with some cheap tickets and actually grow the business...

What exactly is the Devon and Cornwall Railcard, if not a measure to encourage travel by offering cheap tickets for local journeys in that part of the country?

Where exactly do you think GWR is going to drum up all these extra passengers from in Cornwall all year round? Especially at the times of the day and year when the trains are going to be at their emptiest for reasons that are plain enough - such as being out of the holiday season - and on a route where the train service is being stepped up to 2tph all day, which will inevitably spread out current loadings across the additional services.

In an ideal world, if there were more 9s in the fleet; and if more 9s could be stabled down at Penzance then yes, more of the Cornish services would and should be 9s. But that isn’t where we are. The best has to be made of the fleet that exists. And while it may seem like Cornwall gets a raw deal with portion working compared to the North Cotswolds or Swansea - which equally don’t “deserve” all of the full-length trains they get - the difference is Plymouth station. Neither Oxford nor Cardiff are particularly conducive to portion working, with only 1 and 2 full length up platforms respectively for trains to attach in; and a much, much more intensive service off those platforms. The more relaxed pace of Cornish train services means a huge station like Plymouth really isn’t used to its full potential - which incidentally was designed to handle portion working of through trains to/from Cornwall.

Re Oxford and Cardiff, it isn't just the platform occupation issue, there are far more trains, passenger and freight, operating through those stations and on the routes around them than Plymouth and the track layouts require terminating sets to move across the main lines to head back in the other direction, which means nothing else can move while that is going on. No one is going to wear yet more shunt moves at Oxford on top of the ones that already happen for the terminating and starting London services.

From what I understand of the likely rolling stock allocations from the new timetable, there will be a reduction in use of nine-car sets on the Cotswold Line past Oxford on weekdays outside the peak periods - which is not exactly a surprise -so the overall balance will probably look more like 70% of trains overall being five-car and 30% nine-car, instead of about 60-40 at present.

Which is probably about the right balance to cover the busiest services on the route with higher-capacity trains and accurately reflect the traffic on offer the rest of the day. Not forgetting that outside the peaks, the service will be staying at 1tph both ways for the foreseeable future - unlike Cornwall.

Perhaps someone might now come up here with an honest reflection on what balance may be appropriate in Cornwall, as opposed to 'all big trains, all of the time, because we just should have them and who cares about all the empty seats being lugged around and what that costs' - and never mind the 100+ years of portion working in Cornwall that preceded the HSTs for the obvious reason that traffic east of Plymouth is higher than to the west.
 

irish_rail

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Messages
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Location
Plymouth
Jimm if you knew quite how badly portion working was going down here u wouldn't be going on with your snide comments. Do me a favour come down here and sample the trains for a few days and see what the situation is like on the ground, it isn't pretty I can assure u.
Whether or not 9 coaches are needed all day on Cornish services is of course debatable but frankly until things improve it is simply unacceptable to cause delays and inconvenience to so many journeys in the South West. Your Cotswold line promotion group wouldn't accept the performance down here so why should we????!!!
 

404250

Member
Joined
25 May 2018
Messages
367
Would it really cost loads more to run 9 car trains in Cornwall and do away with all the splitting chaos/cost, extra staff needed for 2 X 5 then splitting, and annoyed passengers because some (not all) 5s get overcrowded?
 

Bletchleyite

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Would it really cost loads more to run 9 car trains in Cornwall and do away with all the splitting chaos/cost, extra staff needed for 2 X 5 then splitting, and annoyed passengers because some (not all) 5s get overcrowded?

For about the 25th time, if you use a 9-car set and there is a failure that means you get a cancellation instead. Is that your preference?
 

cactustwirly

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Would it really cost loads more to run 9 car trains in Cornwall and do away with all the splitting chaos/cost, extra staff needed for 2 X 5 then splitting, and annoyed passengers because some (not all) 5s get overcrowded?

Yes, it's been mentioned about 20 times already that there's nowhere to stable the 9 cars, as they don't fit in Long Rock
 

404250

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Messages
367
That's a different answer, but more valid. Should have built somewhere for them then.
 

404250

Member
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Messages
367
I'm sorry but when spending that amount of money on electrification and new trains there shouldn't have been corners cut with all the 10 and 5 car runnings that have caused so many problems. Every train should have been 9 and infrastructure changes made to cope with that.
 
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