Caledonian Sleeper

47271 said:

On a positive point of accuracy, the two issues of the new boarding process and an overwhelmed Highlander lounge are not unconnected since one of the benefits of taking the hosts off the doors is to put two staff in the lounge ahead of departure.

This has improved speed of service quite a bit.

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good to know - thanks

Richard P said:

Clearly the fact that people were resorting to Twitter last night in a vain attempt to find out what was happening whilst stood on the concourse at Euston Station suggests that customer service whether remote or otherwise is not up to scratch. The same thing happens every time there is a delay - CS tweet profuse apologies and sometimes explain what the reason for the delay (but more often not don't) then never reply to customer tweets. They commence the communication on Twitter not the customers then disappear

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Good points, which kind of re-inforces my point that you have to resource this sort of thing properly, not just do twitter because it is fashionable new comms method (like e-mail once was) . Better to not do it at all if you cannot do it fully I would say.

Bletchleyite said:

Interestingly on the Canadian you are allocated to share in the restaurant car - no choice in the matter, you sit where you are told.

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This is the traditional north american practice, and has always been the case as I understand right back to the 1950s and before on Canadian and american long distance trains. The stewards maximise space by seating you at the next available table with whoever is there. Works well and you meet different people. Only way to 'prevent it' is to link up with say 2 other diners you want to eat with and go to the sitting as a group of 4 and you get a table for 4, if you want to dine like that.

As it happens cruise ships (unless you have allocated dining) work like this - esp at brek and lunch when the tables are filled in that way when people come to the ships restaurant - tho not in the evening when you usually have a set table that you always sit at during the voyage.

WesternLancer said:

This is the traditional north american practice, and has always been the case as I understand right back to the 1950s and before on Canadian and american long distance trains. The stewards maximise space by seating you at the next available table with whoever is there. Works well and you meet different people.

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Renfe seemed to do it that way too, so not only North American practice. As you say, works well. I think Serco have got this seriously wrong if they're leaving empty seats at tables.

Also on Renfe, we were offered what sitting time when we boarded and the cabin was changed from seats to beds while we ate and/or drank. It sounds like CS have no seated setting? So I assume there's nowhere good to eat a picnic supper and only go for last-sitting drinks while they unpack the beds, if that's your preference.

My main knowledge is of the Inverness lounge, although mainly in Scotrail days, I'm very rarely on nowadays, but I understand that custom and practice is still pretty similar now, and it's got very little to do with what Serco say or do before anyone gets too far into that. It's what the crew does that makes the difference.

Off the point, I know a very funny story about treatment dished out to an overspill Inverness passenger in a far from busy Aberdeen lounge way before the days of Serco, and I may well come back to that...

As I recall there are two ways to run the Inverness lounge, mobbed as it is on departure.

One way is to leave the Team Leader and, apparently nowadays, a second person in the kitchen, toiling away from 830pm until at least 1030pm. They don't have time to allocate seats or suggest pairings of individual passengers, or think about when to ask people to come back when a table might be available. They may well fall back on 'rules' as a backstop. The queues and frustration build up and people are standing both in the aisle and down into the first sleeper carriage. Significantly, hosts are nowhere to be seen.

Or the full crew work as a proper team and flood the lounge with staff as soon as they can get down the train. I'm thinking of an Inverness crew under the legendary David, who I think emigrated to South Africa a couple of years before Serco took over.

The Team Leader's first job is to seat and take orders from passengers as quickly and efficiently as possible while the second person (under the new system) runs the kitchen. Seating will certainly involve putting strangers together if needs be.

As soon as they know that their sleepers are occupied and settled the majority of hosts join the lounge effort and tables can be served, cleared, bills produced and customers sent happily on their way with amazing speed - you can have five of them on the case after all. Cheapskates lingering with no more than a cup of tea get the message pretty quickly with this level of activity around them. The Team Leader continues to consider those waiting, whether in the lounge or in cabins, and finds them tables just like the maitre d of a decent restaurant might.

Maybe they do need more systems and rules, but my recollection, and occasional current experience, is that the space they have used proactively and efficiently by a good team, who can be bothered, can be made to work extremely well to the extent that it looks like an advert for VisitScotland.

If anything this should be easier in the mk5s because the stupid purple sofas have been replaced with seats or stools at proper tables.

Factor in the crew have just had to deal with the stock coming in over an hour late, have had to finish making up the rooms (those that aren't already locked OOU due to issues that is)... dealing with already disgruntled passengers having to be moved rooms or even portions, getting lots of tired and irate people boarded, all manner of things not working properly with the stock/facilities. guests with numerous issues/complaints needing resolving, etc etc...

...is it before or after this they become this fresh, happy super-efficient team in the Club Car?

TimboM said:

Factor in the crew have just had to deal with the stock coming in over an hour late, have had to finish making up the rooms (those that aren't already locked OOU due to issues that is)... dealing with already disgruntled passengers having to be moved rooms or even portions, getting lots of tired and irate people boarded, all manner of things not working properly with the stock/facilities. guests with numerous issues/complaints needing resolving, etc etc...

...is it before or after this they become this fresh, happy super-efficient team in the Club Car?

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So do you think that what I described in my post - which used to happen all the time on the old stock - is no longer possible?

ashkeba said:

Also on Renfe, we were offered what sitting time when we boarded and the cabin was changed from seats to beds while we ate and/or drank. It sounds like CS have no seated setting? So I assume there's nowhere good to eat a picnic supper and only go for last-sitting drinks while they unpack the beds, if that's your preference.

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No, beds are fixed and are not converted from seats. There is really nowhere in a berth to eat a proper sit down meal unless you want to do it half standing up over the sink or from a low down sitting position on the bed but that risks getting very messy; both methods would be an excellent way of hurting your back and getting microwaved haggis everywhere. There is a fold out breakfast tray on the wall next to the bunk but it is too small to fit a dinner plate and a glass on, and you have to be lying in the bed to use it.

Highlandspring said:

No, beds are fixed and are not converted from seats. There is really nowhere in a berth to eat a proper sit down meal unless you want to do it half standing up over the sink or from a low down sitting position on the bed but that risks getting very messy; both methods would be an excellent way of hurting your back and getting microwaved haggis everywhere. There is a fold out breakfast tray on the wall next to the bunk but it is too small to fit a dinner plate and a glass on, and you have to be lying in the bed to use it.

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All oven cooked now the Mk5's.

Has anyone tried a mk5 haggis yet then?

I think I see Serco's cunning plan.... drive people out of the seats by making them awkward to book, then go back to the Scottish Government saying 'nobody is using the seated sleeper, but the lounge car is overrun by people wanting food. Can we please convert the seated sleepers into a restaurant car?'

RLBH said:

I think I see Serco's cunning plan.... drive people out of the seats by making them awkward to book, then go back to the Scottish Government saying 'nobody is using the seated sleeper, but the lounge car is overrun by people wanting food. Can we please convert the seated sleepers into a restaurant car?'

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How are the seats "awkward to book"?

RLBH said:

I think I see Serco's cunning plan.... drive people out of the seats by making them awkward to book, then go back to the Scottish Government saying 'nobody is using the seated sleeper, but the lounge car is overrun by people wanting food. Can we please convert the seated sleepers into a restaurant car?'

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Couldn't be simpler to book. Select the seated ticket option then pick your seat. Easy.

RLBH said:

I think I see Serco's cunning plan.... drive people out of the seats by making them awkward to book, then go back to the Scottish Government saying 'nobody is using the seated sleeper, but the lounge car is overrun by people wanting food. Can we please convert the seated sleepers into a restaurant car?'

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Perhaps I'm missing something but what makes you think the seats are awkward to book?

They even appear on other operators' booking engines - I was offered the seated sleeper as an option for the return when searching for Dundee-London on the LNER website.

EDIT: people also say the Edinburgh-Fort William 'day' seats are awkward: again, easy to book on the LNER website (because I had it open), and only slightly more clunky on ScotRail where it says it's a sleeper and offers a "free" seat supplement.

marks87 said:

Perhaps I'm missing something but what makes you think the seats are awkward to book?

They even appear on other operators' booking engines - I was offered the seated sleeper as an option for the return when searching for Dundee-London on the LNER website.

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I think he means on the parts of lines where they also operate as day trains where you are supposed to have a reservation, but which can be difficult to acquire.

Iskra said:

I think he means on the parts of lines where they also operate as day trains where you are supposed to have a reservation, but which can be difficult to acquire.

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See my edit: easy to book via LNER (and presumably other websites that use the same engine) and only slightly confusing when booking via ScotRail, but still not difficult (and I suspect that's a "quirk" of ScotRail's choice of booking engine rather than CS making things "awkward").

In any case, I'm not sure why that would lead to a convincing argument to drop the seats from the entire franchise.

marks87 said:

See my edit: easy to book via LNER (and presumably other websites that use the same engine) and only slightly confusing when booking via ScotRail, but still not difficult (and I suspect that's a "quirk" of ScotRail's choice of booking engine rather than CS making things "awkward").

In any case, I'm not sure why that would lead to a convincing argument to drop the seats from the entire franchise.

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This is what I get via Scotrail. No option to buy a seated (or any) ticket on the sleeper service.



...and here's what I get on LNER. "No later trains".

BRX said:

This is what I get via Scotrail. No option to buy a seated (or any) ticket on the sleeper service.
View attachment 64062


...and here's what I get on LNER. "No later trains".

View attachment 64063

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I have just looked on the Scotrail website and it is perfectly easy to book - no harder than booking any other Advance. There are no seats left on tonight's service, it would seem, hence you (and I) not seeing any available. But tomorrow morning's is fine. £15.00 to Fort William from Edinburgh, bargain.

Edit: Even the notoriously clunky pass-through from the nationalrail.co.uk works with the Scotrail website for these tickets. I can book the seats both out and return from Waverley to Fort William for tomorrow for £30 (£15 each way). In all seriousness, I don't get what the issue people are having is here? Perhaps it is that the tickets are quota-controlled, and there are none left to book when people are searching for them?

Mathew S said:

View attachment 64064
I have just looked on the Scotrail website and it is perfectly easy to book - no harder than booking any other Advance. There are no seats left on tonight's service, it would seem, hence you (and I) not seeing any available. But tomorrow morning's is fine. £15.00 to Fort William from Edinburgh, bargain.

Edit: Even the notoriously clunky pass-through from the nationalrail.co.uk works with the Scotrail website for these tickets. I can book the seats both out and return from Waverley to Fort William for tomorrow for £30 (£15 each way). In all seriousness, I don't get what the issue people are having is here? Perhaps it is that the tickets are quota-controlled, and there are none left to book when people are searching for them?

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Isn't it that even if all seats are booked up you can still join this train without a reservation north of Edinboro, or have I got that muddled up. You would not know that from those booking engine screengrabs if you were an average buyer with no prior awareness - if I have it correct of course.

Iskra said:

I think he means on the parts of lines where they also operate as day trains where you are supposed to have a reservation, but which can be difficult to acquire.

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I suspected that, but that has little or nothing to do with any proposal to convert the seats to a restaurant car.

BRX said:

This is what I get via Scotrail. No option to buy a seated (or any) ticket on the sleeper service.
View attachment 64062


...and here's what I get on LNER. "No later trains".

View attachment 64063

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As stated, it's marked as "reservations compulsory" for the booking engines so if there's no seats left it won't show up. That's arguably the only "awkward" part: that walk-up passengers don't realise they can still join the train. However, I again suspect that's a quirk of the booking systems rather than a deliberate action by CS.

I think sometimes people are having problems when they want to use the 'daytime' sleeper seats when they have a valid anytime/off peak ticket - ie. not a service-specific advance.

As far as I understand, the timetable says you must have a reservation, but there's no way to make a reservation when you have such a ticket, including via CS who tell people that a reservation is not in fact required. The booking engines are behaving as if a reservation *is* required because they are only offering advance singles.

marks87 said:

Yes, but you're looking at the wrong day!

The seats are a day train for the next day, i.e. tomorrow's 0450 from Edinburgh is the first train of the day on Thursday 6th June, not the last train of the day on Wednesday 5th June.

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The seats are supposed to be available on the southbound sleeper, leaving at 1950, which is the last train of the day. That's the one I was seeing if I could book.

ashkeba said:

Renfe seemed to do it that way too, so not only North American practice. As you say, works well. I think Serco have got this seriously wrong if they're leaving empty seats at tables.

Also on Renfe, we were offered what sitting time when we boarded and the cabin was changed from seats to beds while we ate and/or drank. It sounds like CS have no seated setting? So I assume there's nowhere good to eat a picnic supper and only go for last-sitting drinks while they unpack the beds, if that's your preference.

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Yes, as Highlandspring says, UK sleepers do not have beds that convert to seats as the journeys are not long enough to need that facility. The seats they do have are either for people who do not have a berth, or seats in the lounge car for use then. Because the only option in your room is to sit or lie on your bunk therefore, it creates demand for a relatively short period in eve and morning for a place to sit. You would have to picnic in your room. Not difficult to do as it's spacious enough and would probably work well with typical pic nic type food actually.

I've not been on a Mk5 yet so don't know if the larger berths at least would have enough room to sit somewhere in the cabin to eat.

Detailed interior pics on this page if you scroll down illustrate the point

https://www.seat61.com/CaledonianSleepers.htm

It looks like the Mk5s don't have the fold down shelf over the sink that makes some valuable space to put snacks / drinks, tho maybe they have an alternative equivalent.

I assume even the older Mk1s designed in the 1950s didn't convert to day seating arrangements, even though journeys would have been longer then. Some interior pics of a 1952 built car seem to indicate that they did not
https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/398.html

BRX said:

The seats are supposed to be available on the southbound sleeper, leaving at 1950, which is the last train of the day. That's the one I was seeing if I could book.

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Yes, I noticed that just after posting and thought I'd edited before anyone saw.

The rest of my post still stands, however. The issue is primarily down to booking engines not being able to treat the train as both a sleeper with compulsory reservations, and a walk-up day train.

WesternLancer said:

It looks like the Mk5s don't have the fold down shelf over the sink that makes some valuable space to put snacks / drinks, tho maybe they have an alternative equivalent.

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There is a pull out table below the sink.

marks87 said:

Yes, I noticed that just after posting and thought I'd edited before anyone saw.

The rest of my post still stands, however. The issue is primarily down to booking engines not being able to treat the train as both a sleeper with compulsory reservations, and a walk-up day train.

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I don't really see why that needs to be so difficult.

GWR seem able to offer both sleeper tickets and walk-up singles for the night riviera. This is for tonight's train.

JModulo said:

There is a pull out table below the sink.

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Thanks

BRX said:

I don't really see why that needs to be so difficult.

GWR seem able to offer both sleeper tickets and walk-up singles for the night riviera. This is for tonight's train.

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Showing an Advance more expensive than the walk-up single...why on earth that is being sold the mind boggles.

By the way the Riviera seats do not have compulsory reservations (as there are loads of them and rather less demand), I've used it on a walk-up bought on the day from the TVM at Bletchley.

The one thing that's confusing me at the minute is why is it still necessary to hire in FL class 90's and DB class 67's when by now they should have enough 92's and 73's to cover the workings I understand the use of the ACLG locos for the ECS's but surely it must be more expensive to short term hire in locos against the long term agreement with GBrf