reddragon
Established Member
I complained about a similar incident for my son. He got a refund a 2x first class tickets! The staff concerned were given better guidance, not sacked.
I wonder if you travel regularly why you don’t reserve a seat?
Everybody sucks here. OP for not moving when asked. The other passenger for being petty. The 'manager' for acting inappropriately.
What a mess, and so preventable.
Why should the OP have moved?
Someone reserved the seat. There were others available. It's not a huge sacrifice to make for another person.
Apparently they had. I'll try that in future though, spy a seat I like and tell the person it's mine.
If there were no reservations out, it's open season. They could have easily accepted this pretty quickly and sat elsewhere, not the OP.
Even so, GWR have said themselves that reservations aren’t valid if they’re not applied, the OP did nothing wrong and was under no obligation to move. If there were other free seats, no reason why the manager couldn’t have just sat somewhere else in the first place.Someone reserved the seat. There were others available. It's not a huge sacrifice to make for another person.
That's why everyone sucks. Presumably the passenger would have their own evidence of the reservation. It's not about who's "right" in a court of law here. This is about people being civil to one another.
Interesting to hear that, as GWR policy itself states that (taken from one of my emails):I complained about a similar incident for my son. He got a refund a 2x first class tickets! The staff concerned were given better guidance, not sacked.
Why we don’t offer compensation
We understand that bad service can be distressing for our customers. And we don’t want to undermine this by offering money as if that makes the problem go away.
Instead, we believe the best way to make things right is to fully investigate what happened, and find ways to make sure it doesn’t happen again. That way, we know all of our staff are living up to the high standards we set them.
We also want to be fair to everyone involved. We take every complaint at face value and we investigate each and every one. Our investigations can be stressful, and seriously affect the member of staff involved.
So another reason we don’t offer compensation, is that we could risk opening our staff up to dishonest complaints. We know that most of our customers wouldn’t do this, but there are a few who might take advantage of it. By taking away the potential for compensation, we hope that those few people won’t make claims against our staff if they haven’t done anything wrong.
I actually have a lot of respect for GWR or whoever came up with that policy!Interesting to hear that, as GWR policy itself states that (taken from one of my emails):
I wouldn't touch someone unless there was very good reason; if I have to intervene physically (which does happen from time to time) I'd be writing a statement about it and explaining what the threat from that person was.
Precisely - for any complaint regarding a member of staff there’s quite a process to follow. CCTV would be reviewed and the member of staff interviewed to obtain their version of events.
I’m still trying to work out where the GWR director turned “unfriendly”
At the end of the day, the GWR director has no position of authority on that train, even when it comes down to upgrades. Managers/Directors should not undermine the position of the traincrew.
I’m still trying to work out where the GWR director turned “unfriendly”
At the end of the day, the GWR director has no position of authority on that train, even when it comes down to upgrades. Managers/Directors should not undermine the position of the traincrew.
For me it would all depend how it played out. If the OP had made an initial civil reply saying they thought there weren't any reservations and the other passenger had instantly turned into a tool then I wouldn't be moving either, they'd be told to do one.
We are of course only hearing one side of this. But to me it sounds like both the original protagonists had a bit of attitude - for it go on that long suggests that. Anyone who starts going on about assault and all that nonsense is clearly not trying to take the heat out of the situation. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other - move along, please, nothing to see here.
It would be interesting to hear from the other passengers as to why they found this amusing. And also I may be playing Devils Advocate here, but the specific nature of the allegations made on here without the reply of the other party makes this all very one sided. I’d add that because GWR high ranking staff are involved, that’s quite a small pool of people to look at and their lawyers might start wanting to take a good look at this thread. Possibly an idea to lock it??
I completely disagree and the more I think about it, it needs reporting.We are of course only hearing one side of this. But to me it sounds like both the original protagonists had a bit of attitude - for it go on that long suggests that. Anyone who starts going on about assault and all that nonsense is clearly not trying to take the heat out of the situation. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other - move along, please, nothing to see here.
Agreed; most TOCs share that policy. A few bad ones do notI actually have a lot of respect for GWR or whoever came up with that policy!
I actually have a lot of respect for GWR or whoever came up with that policy!
I'd agree. VTWC had a phase of paying people off and not reading their complaint. While I like 50 quid's worth of RTVs like anyone else, I do prefer things are properly dealt with.
Such silly incidents when people lack the basic courtesy to accept a situation when seat reservations are not applied. I’m talking about basic politenes. It's not acceptable to attempt to turf someone out of an unreserved space, and then expect them to move again at potentially every other station if another selfish person also attempts to do the same thing.Such silly incidents when people lack the basic courtesy to accept a situation when someone shows a valid seat reservation. Yes I know some will argue about the ability to enforce it if the reservation labels are missing, but I’m not talking about enforcement. I’m talking about basic politeness.
I'd never really thought about this before, and have no idea what the rules are, but my gut feeling is that it should be immaterial whether or not the little reservation displays are working or not, or tickets have been slotted in seat backs - a reserved seat should be a reserved seat. If I have a little orange ticket saying "C 36" on it, I should sit in C 36, and someone else sitting there should politely move as soon as I request it...I agree with the concept that if seat reservations aren't displayed / made known clearly in some manner, then they should not be valid - I leave it for the poor guard/train manager to sort how best to deal with the aftermath of this
I'd never really thought about this before, and have no idea what the rules are, but my gut feeling is that it should be immaterial whether or not the little reservation displays are working or not, or tickets have been slotted in seat backs - a reserved seat should be a reserved seat. If I have a little orange ticket saying "C 36" on it, I should sit in C 36, and someone else sitting there should politely move as soon as I request it...
If someone hasn't reserved a seat, they should be prepared to move or stand in order to make way for someone who has reserved a seat. That just seems fair to me. Is there some counterargument that I'm missing?
I've heard it said on these very forums, that when you buy a ticket, the rail company just undertakes to get you from A to B, with no guarantee of a seat or any level of comfort.The silly game of musical chairs when you don't know which seat is reserved. It's just easier to have them not apply.
My strong feeling is that it should be immaterial whether or not someone unexpectedly turns up to claim the seat or not, an unreserved seat is an unreserved seat.I'd never really thought about this before, and have no idea what the rules are, but my gut feeling is that it should be immaterial whether or not the little reservation displays are working or not, or tickets have been slotted in seat backs - a reserved seat should be a reserved seat.
If seat reservations are not available, no-one should be moving anyone else out of their seat. They have no right to do so.If I have a little orange ticket saying "C 36" on it, I should sit in C 36, and someone else sitting there should politely move as soon as I request it...
With a very few exceptions (Sleeper, Eurostar), trains are not reservation compulsory in this country; the vast majority of tickets sold are flexible and allow any available seat to be occupied.If someone hasn't reserved a seat, they should be prepared to move or stand in order to make way for someone who has reserved a seat. That just seems fair to me. Is there some counterargument that I'm missing?
XC may have changed their policy; I was on a train a week or two ago where all reservations were cancelled and passengers were told reservations did not apply. My seat did not exist, and I would have told anyone who tried to get me to move that reservations did not apply. However as the announcements were made shortly after departure from each stop, everyone accepted it. There were no arguments. It was much more civil and orderly than people turfing people out of seats!That's the rule applied by VTWC and XC. GWR and ScotRail apply the other rule, namely that if not marked they don't apply.
Agreed, it should be clearly stated that if reservations are not displayed, passengers should occupy any available seat. It should be no different to any other train that does not offer reservations.The main thing I think is needed is clear signage in every coach stating those rules to avoid arguments, which no TOC seems to have.
The silly game of musical chairs when you don't know which seat is reserved. It's just easier to have them not apply.
I think you are applying a different meaning to the word "guarantee"; see LNER's scheme below:I've heard it said on these very forums, that when you buy a ticket, the rail company just undertakes to get you from A to B, with no guarantee of a seat or any level of comfort.
But when you buy a seat reservation, you have a guarantee of a seated journey.
An absolute guarantee of a seat cannot be offered; the train may be cancelled or short formed or reservations may not be in place, but if you made a reservation and seats are not available then most operators will offer compensation if this is the case. On board staff may upgrade you to 1st class if possible.What is the Seat Guarantee scheme?
Our seats are famously comfy. So it’s only natural to be cheesed off if you find none are available when you’ve gone to the trouble of booking one.
If that happens, and our staff can't track you down an alternative seat, our Seat Guarantee scheme lets you claim a refund. Here’s how it works:
- If you had a one way ticket, we’ll compensate you 100% of the value
- If you had a return ticket, we’ll compensate you 50% of the value
- If you had a First Class ticket and the only seat available is in Standard, we’ll compensate you the difference between the fare you paid and the Standard equivalent
No-one should play the "musical chair game"; no-one plays that game on an unreservable service, so a train without reservations should be no different.But if the seat reservations aren't working, the person without the reservation seems to get a guaranteed seat, and the person with the reservation doesn't, and has to potentially play the musical chair game, or get lumbered with a seat that might be less suitable than the one he wanted (eg no table, reduced legroom, no window view, facing the wrong way, not with the person he is travelling with)?
OK, but many of us are experienced travellers and do get it!I'm not being pig-headed here, but I still don't get it.
But you indicated that if your seat did exist you'd ask the person to move and expect them to move. How would you know if the train was short formed? In any case, the suggestion that you should not turf me out because I have a cheap £20 advance ticket, but should turf out a person who has paid £200 for an anytime ticket, and who sat in an unreserved seat in good faith, is counter-intuitive.I appreciate things may be more complex if the train is short-formed or with different stock or whatever, but I'm purely addressing the situation where all train has all the seats that it should have, but the seat displays are not working (or the seat-back tickets have not been put out).
I think the rail industry would have to completely change its pricing model and massively reduce the cost of flexible fares if anyone holding a flexible ticket could be told at any time - with absolutely no prior warning - that they must vacate their seat for an invisible reservation. It also causes unnecessary conflict and creates a situation where only assertive or aggressive people ask others to move, so a passive/timid person who has a reservation but isn't prepared to ask someone to vacate the seat also ends up having to move at potentially each stop.It seems to me that the passenger who has not reserved a seat should have to accept, along with the risk they'll have to stand, the risk that they'll be asked to move by someone with a valid prior claim, ie a reservation.
That's your choice if you want to give way at potentially 10 or more stops on a cross country journey.If I were asked to move in that situation it would never have occurred to me to do anything other than give way, politely, smilingly, and with good grace.
They have no right to turf people out of seats, however if there are no available tables for four they could seek the assistance of staff who may be able to find alternatives (this may involve asking an individual sat at a table of four if they may voluntarily give up their seats, or it may involve a complimentary upgrade).So a family - two parents and two young children say - have reserved a block of four seats. But when they arrive, they find those occupied by people without a reservation. They then have to try and find seats for themselves and may end up separated, or find the only place they can sit together is on the floor in a vestibule. Doesn't seem quite right to me.