reddragon
Established Member
I complained about a similar incident for my son. He got a refund a 2x first class tickets! The staff concerned were given better guidance, not sacked.
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Seat reservation woes... and being slapped on my shoulder by a GWR Director
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My 2p
1) I agree with the concept that if seat reservations aren't displayed / made known clearly in some manner, then they should not be valid - I leave it for the poor guard/train manager to sort how best to deal with the aftermath of this
2) Assuming everything was as described (and I would report the incident to BTP and try and obtain the CCTV) then that seems to be assault, and something that should be dealt with appropriately - it maybe that that the OP is content in this scenario for it to be dealt by First's internal procedures
1) I agree with the concept that if seat reservations aren't displayed / made known clearly in some manner, then they should not be valid - I leave it for the poor guard/train manager to sort how best to deal with the aftermath of this
2) Assuming everything was as described (and I would report the incident to BTP and try and obtain the CCTV) then that seems to be assault, and something that should be dealt with appropriately - it maybe that that the OP is content in this scenario for it to be dealt by First's internal procedures
I’m still trying to work out where the GWR director turned “unfriendly”
At the end of the day, the GWR director has no position of authority on that train, even when it comes down to upgrades. Managers/Directors should not undermine the position of the traincrew.
At the end of the day, the GWR director has no position of authority on that train, even when it comes down to upgrades. Managers/Directors should not undermine the position of the traincrew.
trainophile
Established Member
I was in 1st on a Virgin train this morning, in coach K and pretty much the only person there. You may know how noisy the staff often are in that section, and they were including me in the friendly banter. However not once but twice one of the female stewards put her hand on my shoulder, quite deliberately not just brushed it in passing. She was only being friendly, joking about I could have her job if I wanted it, but the second time she was carrying a plate of bacon rolls in her other hand, and I couldn't help wondering whether there was any chance of a transfer of grease onto my clothes.
I wouldn't dream of getting her into trouble, but I thought maybe she was taking familiarity a bit too far.
I wouldn't dream of getting her into trouble, but I thought maybe she was taking familiarity a bit too far.
BlockBackBobby
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I wonder if you travel regularly why you don’t reserve a seat?
trainophile
Established Member
Who is that question addressed to?
Why should the OP have moved?
Someone reserved the seat. There were others available. It's not a huge sacrifice to make for another person.
Apparently they had. I'll try that in future though, spy a seat I like and tell the person it's mine.
If there were no reservations out, it's open season. They could have easily accepted this pretty quickly and sat elsewhere, not the OP.
That's why everyone sucks. Presumably the passenger would have their own evidence of the reservation. It's not about who's "right" in a court of law here. This is about people being civil to one another.
Even so, GWR have said themselves that reservations aren’t valid if they’re not applied, the OP did nothing wrong and was under no obligation to move. If there were other free seats, no reason why the manager couldn’t have just sat somewhere else in the first place.
For me it would all depend how it played out. If the OP had made an initial civil reply saying they thought there weren't any reservations and the other passenger had instantly turned into a tool then I wouldn't be moving either, they'd be told to do one.
It would be interesting to hear from the other passengers as to why they found this amusing. And also I may be playing Devils Advocate here, but the specific nature of the allegations made on here without the reply of the other party makes this all very one sided. I’d add that because GWR high ranking staff are involved, that’s quite a small pool of people to look at and their lawyers might start wanting to take a good look at this thread. Possibly an idea to lock it??
43096
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We are of course only hearing one side of this. But to me it sounds like both the original protagonists had a bit of attitude - for it go on that long suggests that. Anyone who starts going on about assault and all that nonsense is clearly not trying to take the heat out of the situation. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other - move along, please, nothing to see here.
Dren Ahmeti
Member
Interesting to hear that, as GWR policy itself states that (taken from one of my emails):
I actually have a lot of respect for GWR or whoever came up with that policy!
Bromley boy
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I certainly agree with you here. A completely unnecessary risk to take in most circumstances.
Sometimes it’s unavoidable of course; people needing to be woken from a drunken stupor on late night trains being a good example. An absolute minefield!
Indeed, although it invariably lacks audio, which is no doubt part of the reason why front line rail staff, and others, are increasingly wearing body cams which record sound and video.
He was asking me whether I would move and I said I’m going to end up sitting in someone else’s reserved seat so I’d rather not. He said something along the lines of that I was in the other passengers seat and I said (thanks to this forum though didn’t get it quite right) that the National Conditions is Carriage say that’s not the case... I meant Railway Bylaws - and it was at that point that he distinctly got the hump.
I was hoping to see him this morning on the platform actually as I was going to say that I really didn’t like the way that he handled it and give him an opportunity to hopefully say sorry. My plan was that if he didn’t say sorry that I would then make a complaint or a report or the incident as people have suggested.
I was definitely civil and the only one getting angry and starting to be threatening was the passenger whose seat I was in. I think it the tables were turned I’d probably be just as cross as the chap with the reservation. It wasn’t either of our fault’s that GWR can’t really get this right.
I half agree but also disagree. I think you’re right both protagonists did have a bit an attitude. It was the wading-in by the GWR Director which caused me to post this. I did have an attitude and that was that the seeming consensus on this forum and as someone else has posted...GWR’s policy, is that the seat reservation is void. So I very politely stood my ground and other than moving to another seat which I felt I shouldn’t do, there was nothing I could do. If someone is threatening to man handle you out of a seat it’s probably just as well to remind them that it would be assault - if nothing else than to persuade them not to do it.
I strongly suspect the chap whose seat I sat it was then seated in 1st class, so I think he probably did quite well out of it.
The allegation is that he touched me on the shoulder in an annoyed and exasperated way... and that he exhibited really poor judgement in the way he dealt with (in my opinion) the situation. I don’t think lawyers are going to get involved and it feels like a fairly measured allegation.
I think the other point is that I spend just over £1000 a month on my travel card and don’t I have the right not to be spoken to rudely or dealt with in a way that’s anything other than civil by a senior member of the organisation? I’m stuck - I have to go to work each day and I will have to do so on GWR who I’m generally a big fan of and almost every one of their employees, but for heavens sake, how can someone feel they have the right to deal with their customer in a way like that?!
End of mild rant.
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I completely disagree and the more I think about it, it needs reporting.
Someone who is representing their employer needs to behave appropriately; it's not the same as an encounter between random members of the public.
Agreed; most TOCs share that policy. A few bad ones do not
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd agree. VTWC had a phase of paying people off and not reading their complaint. While I like 50 quid's worth of RTVs like anyone else, I do prefer things are properly dealt with.
And Virgin Atlantic in the past (with points). Perhaps a common theme?
Such silly incidents when people lack the basic courtesy to accept a situation when someone shows a valid seat reservation. Yes I know some will argue about the ability to enforce it if the reservation labels are missing, but I’m not talking about enforcement. I’m talking about basic politeness.
Such silly incidents when people lack the basic courtesy to accept a situation when seat reservations are not applied. I’m talking about basic politenes. It's not acceptable to attempt to turf someone out of an unreserved space, and then expect them to move again at potentially every other station if another selfish person also attempts to do the same thing.
Dougal2345
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I'd never really thought about this before, and have no idea what the rules are, but my gut feeling is that it should be immaterial whether or not the little reservation displays are working or not, or tickets have been slotted in seat backs - a reserved seat should be a reserved seat. If I have a little orange ticket saying "C 36" on it, I should sit in C 36, and someone else sitting there should politely move as soon as I request it...
If someone hasn't reserved a seat, they should be prepared to move or stand in order to make way for someone who has reserved a seat. That just seems fair to me. Is there some counterargument that I'm missing?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's the rule applied by VTWC and XC. GWR and ScotRail apply the other rule, namely that if not marked they don't apply.
The main thing I think is needed is clear signage in every coach stating those rules to avoid arguments, which no TOC seems to have.
The silly game of musical chairs when you don't know which seat is reserved. It's just easier to have them not apply.
Dougal2345
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I've heard it said on these very forums, that when you buy a ticket, the rail company just undertakes to get you from A to B, with no guarantee of a seat or any level of comfort.
But when you buy a seat reservation, you have a guarantee of a seated journey.
But if the seat reservations aren't working, the person without the reservation seems to get a guaranteed seat, and the person with the reservation doesn't, and has to potentially play the musical chair game, or get lumbered with a seat that might be less suitable than the one he wanted (eg no table, reduced legroom, no window view, facing the wrong way, not with the person he is travelling with)?
My strong feeling is that it should be immaterial whether or not someone unexpectedly turns up to claim the seat or not, an unreserved seat is an unreserved seat.
If seat reservations are not available, no-one should be moving anyone else out of their seat. They have no right to do so.
With a very few exceptions (Sleeper, Eurostar), trains are not reservation compulsory in this country; the vast majority of tickets sold are flexible and allow any available seat to be occupied.
XC may have changed their policy; I was on a train a week or two ago where all reservations were cancelled and passengers were told reservations did not apply. My seat did not exist, and I would have told anyone who tried to get me to move that reservations did not apply. However as the announcements were made shortly after departure from each stop, everyone accepted it. There were no arguments. It was much more civil and orderly than people turfing people out of seats!
Agreed, it should be clearly stated that if reservations are not displayed, passengers should occupy any available seat. It should be no different to any other train that does not offer reservations.
I think you are applying a different meaning to the word "guarantee"; see LNER's scheme below:
https://www.lner.co.uk/customer-service/seat-guarantee/
An absolute guarantee of a seat cannot be offered; the train may be cancelled or short formed or reservations may not be in place, but if you made a reservation and seats are not available then most operators will offer compensation if this is the case. On board staff may upgrade you to 1st class if possible.
No-one should play the "musical chair game"; no-one plays that game on an unreservable service, so a train without reservations should be no different.
I booked an individual seat in the Quiet Coach on XC recently, but my seat did not exist and neither did the entire coach. Reservations were therefore cancelled. I sat in an alternative seat. If anyone thinks I should then be forced to give up that seat at the next stop, and then be forced by someone else to give up the next seat at the stop after that, then that's an absurd argument.
Dougal2345
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I'm not being pig-headed here, but I still don't get it.
I appreciate things may be more complex if the train is short-formed or with different stock or whatever, but I'm purely addressing the situation where the train has all the seats that it should have, but the reservation displays are not working (or the seat-back tickets have not been put out).
It seems to me that the passenger who has not reserved a seat should have to accept, along with the risk they'll have to stand, the risk that they'll be asked to move by someone with a valid prior claim, ie a reservation. If I were asked to move in that situation it would never have occurred to me to do anything other than give way, politely, smilingly, and with good grace.
So a family - two parents and two young children say - have reserved a block of four seats. But when they arrive, they find those occupied by people without a reservation. They then have to try and find seats for themselves and may end up separated, or find the only place they can sit together is on the floor in a vestibule. Doesn't seem quite right to me.
I appreciate things may be more complex if the train is short-formed or with different stock or whatever, but I'm purely addressing the situation where the train has all the seats that it should have, but the reservation displays are not working (or the seat-back tickets have not been put out).
It seems to me that the passenger who has not reserved a seat should have to accept, along with the risk they'll have to stand, the risk that they'll be asked to move by someone with a valid prior claim, ie a reservation. If I were asked to move in that situation it would never have occurred to me to do anything other than give way, politely, smilingly, and with good grace.
So a family - two parents and two young children say - have reserved a block of four seats. But when they arrive, they find those occupied by people without a reservation. They then have to try and find seats for themselves and may end up separated, or find the only place they can sit together is on the floor in a vestibule. Doesn't seem quite right to me.
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OK, but many of us are experienced travellers and do get it!
But you indicated that if your seat did exist you'd ask the person to move and expect them to move. How would you know if the train was short formed? In any case, the suggestion that you should not turf me out because I have a cheap £20 advance ticket, but should turf out a person who has paid £200 for an anytime ticket, and who sat in an unreserved seat in good faith, is counter-intuitive.
I think the rail industry would have to completely change its pricing model and massively reduce the cost of flexible fares if anyone holding a flexible ticket could be told at any time - with absolutely no prior warning - that they must vacate their seat for an invisible reservation. It also causes unnecessary conflict and creates a situation where only assertive or aggressive people ask others to move, so a passive/timid person who has a reservation but isn't prepared to ask someone to vacate the seat also ends up having to move at potentially each stop.
That's your choice if you want to give way at potentially 10 or more stops on a cross country journey.
They have no right to turf people out of seats, however if there are no available tables for four they could seek the assistance of staff who may be able to find alternatives (this may involve asking an individual sat at a table of four if they may voluntarily give up their seats, or it may involve a complimentary upgrade).
It's unfortunate when a group of 4 people cannot sit together, but this can happen on any service; many trains do not offer seat reservations and most journeys are made on flexible fares.
And what if a group of 4 people found a table, and your invisibly reserved seat was at that table. Would you ask one of the group to vacate that seat so you could sit on it? If yes, then your argument about groups sitting together appears to have no relevance/meaning. If no, then I take it you now see my point?
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