Mid-platform signals at Manchester Piccadilly 13 & 14

Some shenanigans have been going on for a few days now on platforms 13 & 14 but today was a bit odd.

The 17:19 Northern service to Southport arrived at platform 14. However from what I understood, there was an ill or disruptive passenger on this train who had to be removed. This blocked the platform and resulted in a delay for trains behind.

As it was there, the 17:23 Northern service to Liverpool Lime Street slowly rolled up to platform 14B at a snails pace, stopping at the mid-platform signals. Furthermore, this officially stopped with the doors opening and passengers disembarking/boarding while the Southport service was still stationary in platform 14.

Then to throw some more confusion into the mix, as both these trains were stuck in platform 14, the 17:26 TPE service from Manchester Airport to Glasgow Central arrived into platform 13B. The platform was very busy, passengers were confused and staff flapping around with the whole "red line, yellow line" carry-on.

I'm a little confused as I have seen a service being held at the mid-platform signal on platform 14 & being made to wait before a TfW service has departed from platform 13B. However, today we had three separate services in 13B, 14 & 14B at the same time.

I recall someone has mentioned on here it is possible for platform 14 to hold two separate services but logistically it would be a nightmare in practice as platforms 13 & 14 are too narrow to safely accommodate moving passengers en masse - not to mention a lot of confused passengers as was the case today!

However I'm thinking for instance when an unwelcome 2-car Transport for Wales service terminates into platform 13 (this is quite a time-consuming task as staff have to check the train is empty) the service behind could stop at platform 13B to reduce dwell times potentially?

I'm just curious and would be interested in if anyone could elaborate on how the platforms 13/14 can be operationally configured differently from the standard one in-one out that occurs 90% of the time. I realise the problem of dwell times on Piccadilly platforms 13/14 (even as today showed the pitfalls as a result of a disruptive passenger) has been debated at great length on these forums so best keep it succinct.

Platforms 13 & 14 are to be frank are a complete mess. Staff on the platforms and those in the signal box or control make little effort to communicate with each other.

Drivers come in at a snail's pace as they want they mid platform signals to clear, however if they stay at danger and you stop there the guard can open the doors, IME this is after talking with the driver about what he can see ahead. To be honest it's a complete clusterf#@k and so poorly organised its untrue. From my perspective as a driver I hate 13 & 14 at Picc and it needs something doing about it, however at the moment i think we are years away from that happening.

It just about worked (with permissive working) up to the point those signals were installed in about 2000. The day they were, it all went hideously wrong and never recovered.

dilbertphil said:

Platforms 13 & 14 are to be frank are a complete mess. Staff on the platforms and those in the signal box or control make little effort to communicate with each other.

Drivers come in at a snail's pace as they want they mid platform signals to clear, however if they stay at danger and you stop there the guard can open the doors, IME this is after talking with the driver about what he can see ahead. To be honest it's a complete clusterf#@k and so poorly organised its untrue. From my perspective as a driver I hate 13 & 14 at Picc and it needs something doing about it, however at the moment i think we are years away from that happening.

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I can't disagree. I caught the last train from platform 13 a few months ago to Manchester Airport - the station was dead. The platform was changed at the last minute (i.e. as the train looked to be coming into platform 13) to platform 14. I asked the dispatcher why, his response was: "**** knows. They haven't got a clue up there."

Also, I'd be interested in your opinion as a driver on the "red line" problem on 13/14. All it seems to do is fill what is meant to be circulation space for disembarking passengers and gives them no option but to walk along the other side of the platform - usually with their backs away from oncoming trains. I've queried this with a few platform staff. Some actually get it and are clearly not comfortable with it - others simply shrug their shoulders. It must be uncomfortable for drivers sometimes. Only takes one idiot running and another on his phone with his wheeled luggage in front to make one sudden move towards the yellow line and the running momentum bundles them over onto the track. I've nearly seen it happen which is why I raised my concerns about the whole red line issue. I'd like to think it won't be years before they upgrade 13/14 as the current situation is unsustainable from both an operational and safety perspective.

The red line thing might actually work reasonably well if they tweaked it a bit to "don't stand past the red line unless you want the next train".

Normally the driver is very reluctant to approach the red signal. In many cases, if the train in the platform ahead is not moving, and the driver of the train behind does approach the signal, it will sit there with the doors closed. As far as I am aware there is nothing to indicate to passengers or platform staff if or when platform 14B is to be used in this way out of course? Platform 13B did not even have a departure screen until recently - despite having trains actually booked to depart from there.

The peak congestion on the platforms is outrageous since the red line has been painted on. It made it has made it much worse. Also, the provision of staff on the platforms seems to cause a lot of conflict with passengers. For example a passenger in a wheelchair and their companions were waiting well behind the yellow line but over the red line. They were told they needed to wait behind the red line, despite it being totally obvious that there was no room there for the wheelchair. This was pointed out to the security staff concerned, but they were simply told again 'You must wait behind the red line'. On another recent occasion, I was walking along the platform alongside my train to the least busy coach that I could. I knew that there were still 4 minutes until departure time, the train was stationary, and in any case the signal was not off. Despite this I was barked at to walk on the other side of the red line by a member of the security staff. I didn't understand at first so I replied that I was boarding this train. They said again that I must walk on the other side of the red line. I knew the train was not about to move, I was safely far enough back from the train even if it did move, I was about to board the train so needed to see inside it, and also the area behind the red line was crowded with people. Complete madness.

often on narrow platforms the danger with overcrowding and people near to a open edge will be with trains running perhaps 15mph plus
a crowded platform with movement at slow speed whilst not ideal is generally as safe as most near capacity situations

Once a train has come to a stop at the intermediate signal and the train is fully on the platform the driver has no authority to move forward unless they have direct verbal permission off the signaller or via the RA indicator. Therefore the guard must release the doors in the 'b' platform.

The mid-platform signals I think are, in effect, 'closing up' signals. Without them the headway between consecutive trains through the platforms would be much longer.

Note that MP393 (on Platform 14) was only added in about 1999, and I think the same applied for the one on Platform 13. The 'wrong direction') midplatform signals have always been there - presumably for turnbacks.

It seems new wood/plastic screens have been erected on P13/14 (west end anyway), to provide some shelter from the wind/rain.
This further complicates the sightlines and rather defeats the aim of "decluttering" the platforms by removing the previous buildings.
But it's all shabby and customer-hostile, despite maybe being the busiest platform area in the city.
Must be a big headache all round, and there isn't even the P15/16 solution to look forward to.

Ianno87 said:

The mid-platform signals I think are, in effect, 'closing up' signals. Without them the headway between consecutive trains through the platforms would be much longer.

Note that MP393 (on Platform 14) was only added in about 1999, and I think the same applied for the one on Platform 13. The 'wrong direction') midplatform signals have always been there - presumably for turnbacks.

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The plan was for two trains to be able to board simultaneously increasing capacity but caused too much confusion (especially as the old tv style monitors at the time weren't configured properly and trains stopping at the b end were only shown as a footnote on the screen).

scrapy said:

The plan was for two trains to be able to board simultaneously increasing capacity but caused too much confusion (especially as the old tv style monitors at the time weren't configured properly and trains stopping at the b end were only shown as a footnote on the screen).

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Two or even three trains could already board simultaneously and often did with the previous permissive working setup. The change was for safety reasons, though I don't recall hearing of any incidents there.

scrapy said:

Once a train has come to a stop at the intermediate signal and the train is fully on the platform the driver has no authority to move forward unless they have direct verbal permission off the signaller or via the RA indicator. Therefore the guard must release the doors in the 'b' platform.

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The RA indicator would never be used to provide authority to 'move forward', only once station duties are complete and as authority to proceed from the station.

Llama said:

The RA indicator would never be used to provide authority to 'move forward', only once station duties are complete and as authority to proceed from the station.

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In practice drivers mostly avoid this issue by approaching the signal at a crawl (well below walking pace) to try to avoid actually stopping.

Exactly, done that a hundred times before now. Once you're stopped though, if the mid platform signal stays on, the guard should release the doors and the station duties are done at the 'B' end of the platform.

They have mid-platform signals in the Thameslink core and at London Bridge. They are a massive risk. The vast majority of drivers won't move into the platform until they get two yellows. Someone recently spadded one at London Bridge after going in on a single yellow. Mind you, most of the trains using these platforms, other than maybe a 4 or 5 car single unit wouldn't be in anyway. I appreciate it's a different kettle of fish at places like Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham New Street, York etc.

I think if they allow two trains to board at each platform at once, that would be ideal.

There has been mentioning of overcrowding, but this would doubtlessly improve with services running on time and passengers spread more evenly throughout the platform. More information, announcements as well as the current large amount of staff members on Red line shouting duty should be more than enough to get passengers safely on the right trains.

Jozhua said:

I think if they allow two trains to board at each platform at once, that would be ideal.

There has been mentioning of overcrowding, but this would doubtlessly improve with services running on time and passengers spread more evenly throughout the platform. More information, announcements as well as the current large amount of staff members on Red line shouting duty should be more than enough to get passengers safely on the right trains.

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It would work if all trains arrived like clockwork at the correct times, but then again so would the existing setup. As pointed out above and previously, if a train lands up on one of the B platforms there is chaos as hundreds of people try to get through the narrow part of the platform by the steps. This would be ten times worse if there were trains scheduled and people waiting at both ends, and one train was late so they arrived in the wrong ends so the two crowds were trying to push through each other.

The B platforms are also useless in practice because most of their width is occupied by people waiting for the train at the main platform for the opposite direction. As mentioned it's sometimes the only way for people to get to/from the far end of the main platform without being shouted at for crossing the red line. I think the area between the red and yellow lines on the B platform should allow walking but not standing.

Last couple of times I have been to 13/14 I have witnessed shouty red/yellow line man screaming at people. I appreciate they are being told what to do and Network Rail would argue that they are there for our safety, but when the station's design is the root cause of the need to shout at customers something is wrong.

My solution in the absence of a 15/16 would be to extend the "lounge" holding area above platform level to out over the tracks to make it at least double the current size and add a second set of stairs to make one for arrivals and one for departures facing away from each other on the platform. The second stairs solution might be better as one for 13 and one for 14, but in my experience it is the departures from 14 that are always the busiest (Chester/N Wales, Liverpool, Scotland, Bolton/Preston, TPE via curve etc. on 14 vs Norwich/Sheffield, Buxton and some Airports on 13)

They already have half a solution in that customers are advised to "wait in lounge" or "proceed to platform" by the info system depending on which train you are catching, but unless you actually bother to read the PIS you just pile down and add to the overcrowding. If they were to enlarge the space, make it more attractive (better seating and add to the Costa/Smiths) and manage flows by making customers wait in specific areas (yellow, red, green etc) of that enlarged lounge area until a few minutes before train arrival then flows on the platform could be improved.

The Prisoner said:

They already have half a solution in that customers are advised to "wait in lounge" or "proceed to platform" by the info system depending on which train you are catching, but unless you actually bother to read the PIS you just pile down and add to the overcrowding. If they were to enlarge the space, make it more attractive (better seating and add to the Costa/Smiths) and manage flows by making customers wait in specific areas (yellow, red, green etc) of that enlarged lounge area until a few minutes before train arrival then flows on the platform could be improved.

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They could potentially also enforce when you can go to the platform by checking tickets rather than just putting recommendations on the PIS that people will ignore. Won't work for everyone, but the vast majority of people will have a recognisable destination for the train they need.

Apparently they are making efforts to improve the lounge. Currently one of my biggest gripes is that it is absolutely freezing cold in winter! Standing on the platforms can actually be warmer as there isn't a strong draft being channeled through. The large crowd on the platforms can help block the wind and keep you warm at peak times! The seating could also do with making a bit more comfortable, like being able to actually sit on most of them and the ones which aren't strange leaning posts actually having back-rests. If the lounge is actually marginally more comfortable than being shouted at and herdered round the platforms like cattle then people might not go straight to them...

Jozhua said:

Apparently they are making efforts to improve the lounge. Currently one of my biggest gripes is that it is absolutely freezing cold in winter! Standing on the platforms can actually be warmer as there isn't a strong draft being channeled through. The large crowd on the platforms can help block the wind and keep you warm at peak times! The seating could also do with making a bit more comfortable, like being able to actually sit on most of them and the ones which aren't strange leaning posts actually having back-rests. If the lounge is actually marginally more comfortable than being shouted at and herdered round the platforms like cattle then people might not go straight to them...

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It would probably help to put sliding doors on it, then it could be air conditioned in summer and heated in winter. That alone would attract people to stay there. But as I said I think there needs to be some kind of "enforcement" to break the default of going down, i.e. manual ticket checking. It would require trained rail staff and not contractors, though, as they'd need to recognise destinations and ask people questions to see if they should be allowed down or not.

The Prisoner said:

They already have half a solution in that customers are advised to "wait in lounge" or "proceed to platform" by the info system depending on which train you are catching, but unless you actually bother to read the PIS you just pile down and add to the overcrowding. If they were to enlarge the space, make it more attractive (better seating and add to the Costa/Smiths) and manage flows by making customers wait in specific areas (yellow, red, green etc) of that enlarged lounge area until a few minutes before train arrival then flows on the platform could be improved.

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It's worth remembering that the Piccadilly/Oxford Road scheme is still awaiting a decision by the Minister: it could yet be approved (we live in hope!) But if it gets formally deferred or cancelled then you would hope that Network Rail would come up with something along those lines as a Plan B. In the meantime it would be a good idea to "kidnap" Grayling and force him to spend a peak hour or a late Friday/Saturday evening on Piccadilly 13/14 to see for himself just how difficult it is to maintain public safety there.

Shaw S Hunter said:

It's worth remembering that the Piccadilly/Oxford Road scheme is still awaiting a decision by the Minister: it could yet be approved (we live in hope!) But if it gets formally deferred or cancelled then you would hope that Network Rail would come up with something along those lines as a Plan B. In the meantime it would be a good idea to "kidnap" Grayling and force him to spend a peak hour or a late Friday/Saturday evening on Piccadilly 13/14 to see for himself just how difficult it is to maintain public safety there.

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What are the chances Picadilly and Oxford Road upgrades will finally be given the green light if a new Transport Minister is elected?

Jozhua said:

More information, announcements as well as the current large amount of staff members on Red line shouting duty should be more than enough to get passengers safely on the right trains.

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The Red Line Shouters have no interest in getting people on the right train. I am actually quite surprised that I have not witnessed an assault on a Shouter who must be the rudest people on the railway. The closest was when a Shouter was having a right go at someone who had the temerity to have two suitcases whilst waiting (behind the line) for a train to Glasgow. Fortunately the passenger drew the exchange to a close by stating he was not going to listen to the shouting any more, put his headphones on and turned his back on the Shouter.

Going back to the mid platform signals, it seems rather a waste to have such long platforms but only use less than half their length in normal operation but I can see why, when explained by earlier posters.

sheff1 said:

Going back to the mid platform signals, it seems rather a waste to have such long platforms but only use less than half their length in normal operation but I can see why, when explained by earlier posters.

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It does mean that a full-length train can call there, as happened recently with diverted Pendolinos. If it weren't for that, it might be better to close the "B" halves of the platforms and fence them off so passengers couldn't board and alight there and there would be no question of opening the doors if stopped at the mid-platform signals.

edwin_m said:

It does mean that a full-length train can call there, as happened recently with diverted Pendolinos. If it weren't for that, it might be better to close the "B" halves of the platforms and fence them off so passengers couldn't board and alight there and there would be no question of opening the doors if stopped at the mid-platform signals.

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One option if you did that would be that you could have a passenger "pen" back from the active edge and rather than a red line a fence. Trouble is we want longer trains.

Jozhua said:

What are the chances Picadilly and Oxford Road upgrades will finally be given the green light if a new Transport Minister is elected?

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Interesting idea, electing a specific minister! Sadly the Transport portfolio is typically filled by an up and coming bright spark with little interest in the area and often moves on to "bigger and better" things within a year or two. At the moment of course we have a refugee from a self-made ruin at Justice whose only real purpose is to maintain the Brexit balance in Cabinet though in other areas of policy he is closely aligned to May. With the current chaos surrounding the Tory party I am not optimistic the inevitable reshuffle following selection of a new party leader will bring any improvement to the situation at the DfT.

Thought more about my other idea earlier.

Given that passengers wait in a relatively short area, it probably would make some sense to put a fence along the "other" side between, say, the west end and the stairs along P14, and another one between the east end and the stairs along 13. This would shorten the usable length, but would mean the waiting area could be safely extended all the way to the platform edge. Perhaps instead of a fence a full height wind break could be installed.

Pendolinos only serve the platforms very occasionally, so perhaps SDO could be used for those.

While it is clear that platform edge doors are not possible with variing types of train, I have seen one type of platform edge protection that is a series of ropes that form a fence on the edge of the platform, but which raise above the doors when there is a train in the platform. The advantage is that there is no need to line up to doors, because the whole thing raises. Can't remember precisely where I saw it - probably somewhere in Japan.