Seat reservation woes... and being slapped on my shoulder by a GWR Director

Bromley boy · 6 Jun 2019

Dougal2345 said:
It seems to me that the passenger who has not reserved a seat should have to accept, along with the risk they'll have to stand, the risk that they'll be asked to move by someone with a valid prior claim, ie a reservation.

If no reservations are displayed there is no “valid prior claim”.

Dougal2345 said:
So a family - two parents and two young children say - have reserved a block of four seats. But when they arrive, they find those occupied by people without a reservation. They then have to try and find seats for themselves and may end up separated, or find the only place they can sit together is on the floor in a vestibule. Doesn't seem quite right to me.

Tough luck I’m afraid.

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Darandio · 6 Jun 2019

TUC said:
Such silly incidents when people lack the basic courtesy to accept a situation when someone shows a valid seat reservation. Yes I know some will argue about the ability to enforce it if the reservation labels are missing, but I’m not talking about enforcement. I’m talking about basic politeness.

Like I already said earlier in the thread, it all depends how it plays out because the concept of basic politeness works both ways. If i'm on a train where reservations aren't working/placed and someone politely shows me their reservation and requests that I move, i'll happily move to another vacant seat. Rock up and demand that I move in a less than polite tone and they have got no chance, i'm staying put.

From experience, i've had more cases of the latter than former.

Dougal2345 · 6 Jun 2019

yorkie said:
In any case, the suggestion that you should not turf me out because I have a cheap £20 advance ticket, but should turf out a person who has paid £200 for an anytime ticket, and who sat in an unreserved seat in good faith, is counter-intuitive.

I think the price of the ticket is immaterial. By that logic, you'd say that someone holding a £20 First Class ticket should have to swap seats with someone holding a £200 Standard.

In fact, I would say that holding a Reservation confers a privilege on the holder, in the same way that holding a First Class ticket does. If you hold a First Class ticket you're entitled to sit in an area of the train that a Standard Class ticket holder isn't - and if you hold a Reservation, you're entitled to sit in a seat that no-one else is.

yorkie said:
[...] It also causes unnecessary conflict and creates a situation where only assertive or aggressive people ask others to move, so a passive/timid person who has a reservation but isn't prepared to ask someone to vacate the seat also ends up having to move at potentially each stop.

On the contrary, if the rules were harmonised so that the failure of the seat reservation system did not render reservations invalid on any service, the timid person would be more likely to ask for their seat as they would be certain of their rights.

yorkie said:
And what if a group of 4 people found a table, and your invisibly reserved seat was at that table. Would you ask one of the group to vacate that seat so you could sit on it? If yes, then your argument about groups sitting together appears to have no relevance/meaning. If no, then I take it you now see my point?

Yes, I would, or at least I should have that right to require them to vacate a seat (in reality I'd weigh up whether it would make me a bit of an a***hole) - because (crucially) in the situation you're outlining, they didn't reserve their seats, and so had no expectation that they would be certain of sitting together, and I did.

Silverdale · 6 Jun 2019

Dougal2345 said:
It seems to me that the passenger who has not reserved a seat should have to accept, along with the risk they'll have to stand, the risk that they'll be asked to move by someone with a valid prior claim, ie a reservation. If I were asked to move in that situation it would never have occurred to me to do anything other than give way, politely, smilingly, and with good grace.

It seems to me that when reservations are displayed, passengers who haven't reserved can easily find available seats. They're the ones which are not reserved and are not occupied. With reservations not displayed, they are at a complete loss to know whether they are likely to be asked to move or not. And even when asked to move, in doing so they are in no better position. Having moved to another seat, they could be asked to move again. Considering that these passengers could indeed include families of four, who have not reserved but having found seats together, find themselves scattered throughout the train or having to stand/sit on the floor.

The situation should be that reservations are displayed, but when they aren't, I think trying to enforce the reservations would be a nightmare for the train crew particularly if even they can't tell which vacant seats are reserved and which aren't. If the train company can't display the saet resevations, the only reasonable thing to do is to say that reservations are null and void and compensate those who have reserved a seat but can't find one. Having decided that is the policy, the train company should state it clearly and the train crew should make an announcement to that effect, which should avoid the kind of confrontation referred to by the OP.

Of course individual passengers should be civil to one another and a polite request should not be met with anger or abuse, but in general it's not for passengers to rectify the company's failure to display seat reservations by being moved around the train by other passengers.

Dougal2345 · 6 Jun 2019

Bromley boy said:
If no reservations are displayed there is no “valid prior claim”.

On certain TOCs, AIUI.

And the debate here isn't about restating the rules, but more about whether the rules are sensible and fair.

BlockBackBobby · 6 Jun 2019

trainophile said:
Who is that question addressed to?

The OP

BlockBackBobby · 6 Jun 2019

TUC said:
Such silly incidents when people lack the basic courtesy to accept a situation when someone shows a valid seat reservation. Yes I know some will argue about the ability to enforce it if the reservation labels are missing, but I’m not talking about enforcement. I’m talking about basic politeness.

I couldn’t agree more.

Bromley boy · 6 Jun 2019

Dougal2345 said:
On certain TOCs, AIUI.

And the debate here isn't about restating the rules, but more about whether the rules are sensible and fair.

It’s a general, well understood rule that dates back to BR days as far as I’m aware. Are you aware of any TOCs with a different approach?

If no reservations are displayed, you have *absolutely* no right to ask anybody to leave the seat they have chosen.

I would most certainly refuse to vacate a seat under those circumstances and would be offended if asked to do so.

jmh59 · 6 Jun 2019

On TPE recently a guy announced someone was sitting in his seat and showed something on his phone that could easily be typed by hand. Anyway, he got the seat no questions asked but it’s confusing as nothing at all was marked or displayed.

Having recently had reservations on one XC that then died at the platform we were surprised that the next train had a lot of seats and the reservation displays were off. Halfway through, Birmingham I think the train filled with standing passengers discussing amongst themselves that as the displays are off everyone else has their seats. No-one asked anyone to move though. At that moment I really wanted to know if we would have to move if asked - a DM to XC didn’t help at all. Then there was an announcement that was hard to hear but said reservations were not displayed and apologised for crowding caused by a (our) previously cancelled train. There was nothing said to indicate if reservations were still valid or not.

And now I’ve looked at XC’s website you can do a ten minute reservation by text and presumably the sign above the seat then changes to show the upcoming reservation. The website makes it clear but with no overall standard here it’s always going to catch people out. So, you need to research each train before you travel now? If so, then the TOCs need to make it a lot more clear, preferably at booking, and a common policy would surely make sense…

Dougal2345 · 6 Jun 2019

Bromley boy said:
It’s a general, well understood rule that dates back to BR days as far as I’m aware. Are you aware of any TOCs with a different approach?

According to a post earlier in this thread:

Bletchleyite said:
That's[*] the rule applied by VTWC and XC. GWR and ScotRail apply the other rule, namely that if not marked they don't apply.

(* meaning reservations apply even if they're not displayed)

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2019

Bromley boy said:
It’s a general, well understood rule that dates back to BR days as far as I’m aware. Are you aware of any TOCs with a different approach?

Yes, VTWC.

Mitchell Hurd · 6 Jun 2019

I'll be honest, for the 11:22 from Birmingham New Street to Stamford and the 16:05 back, I clicked on seat A50 on XC's 'Select your seat' section. This is because it's near the toilet incase I need it during either trip.

If I do a First Class Advance Single for an HST from Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh on a Sunday, I'd click on seat number A40 (look at the XC HST online layout and you'll see why).

Regardless of whether the reservations are valid etc, I'd expect to get to those seats if the trains not busy - especially the 5-hour HST trip if the booked HST ran.

Note that my nearest station for XC services to and from Birmingham and the North is Oxford. I'm just on about the longer legs of the trips to / from Birmingham New Street.

I only believe in no reservations if the coach and seat doesn't exist - or if say a Voyager runs in place of an HST. In case of this, I'll now be tempted to book the same table seat and seat number when buying an Advance Single for a XC HST in case a Voyager turns up empty or lightly loaded where the same seat type and number exists. This includes an Off-Peak or flexible ticket where there's a 2-hour gap between XC HST's / the only XC HST before the rest are Voyagers.

I hope this all makes sense.

Mitchell Hurd · 6 Jun 2019

Mitchell Hurd said:
I'll be honest, for the 11:22 from Birmingham New Street to Stamford and the 16:05 back, I clicked on seat A50 on XC's 'Select your seat' section. This is because it's near the toilet incase I need it during either trip.

If I do a First Class Advance Single for an HST from Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh on a Sunday, I'd click on seat number A40 (look at the XC HST online layout and you'll see why).

Regardless of whether the reservations are valid etc, I'd expect to get to those seats if the trains not busy - especially the 5-hour HST trip if the booked HST ran.

Note that my nearest station for XC services to and from Birmingham and the North is Oxford. I'm just on about the longer legs of the trips to / from Birmingham New Street.

I only believe in no reservations if the coach and seat doesn't exist - or if say a Voyager runs in place of an HST. In case of this, I'll now be tempted to book the same table seat and seat number when buying an Advance Single for a XC HST in case a Voyager turns up empty or lightly loaded where the same seat type and number exists. This includes an Off-Peak or flexible ticket where there's a 2-hour gap between XC HST's / the only XC HST before the rest are Voyagers.

I hope this all makes sense.

The HST trip being next year (probably around mid-April.

Bromley boy · 6 Jun 2019

Dougal2345 said:
According to a post earlier in this thread:

(* meaning reservations apply even if they're not displayed)

Bletchleyite said:
Yes, VTWC.

If that’s the case then I stand corrected - is there an official statement to that effect on their website?

I find it hard to see how that would be enforceable if the train was short formed etc., quite apart from anything else.

The corollary to having reserved seats is that unreserved seats are a free for all!

bramling · 6 Jun 2019

Dougal2345 said:
I'm not being pig-headed here, but I still don't get it.

I appreciate things may be more complex if the train is short-formed or with different stock or whatever, but I'm purely addressing the situation where the train has all the seats that it should have, but the reservation displays are not working (or the seat-back tickets have not been put out).

It seems to me that the passenger who has not reserved a seat should have to accept, along with the risk they'll have to stand, the risk that they'll be asked to move by someone with a valid prior claim, ie a reservation. If I were asked to move in that situation it would never have occurred to me to do anything other than give way, politely, smilingly, and with good grace.

So a family - two parents and two young children say - have reserved a block of four seats. But when they arrive, they find those occupied by people without a reservation. They then have to try and find seats for themselves and may end up separated, or find the only place they can sit together is on the floor in a vestibule. Doesn't seem quite right to me.

The difference is that if reservations are displayed then those without reservations can find an unreserved seat with no difficulty. If no reservations are displayed then it becomes a complete gamble as to which seats are unreserved, which could lead to them having to move many times. In my view that’s clearly unreasonable, and evidently most TOCs agree as most have a policy that no reservations displayed means no reservations apply.

Quite honestly I’d simply abolish all reservations - they seem to cause a disproportionate amount of trouble all round, especially with the relatively high number which don’t get used in practice, and the impact on dwell times whilst people faff about finding their reserved seat or working out which seats are free to/from where.

i4n · 6 Jun 2019

BlockBackBobby said:
I wonder if you travel regularly why you don’t reserve a seat?

Because season tickets don't come with reservations

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2019

Bromley boy said:
If that’s the case then I stand corrected - is there an official statement to that effect on their website

No, but it is announced if there is a problem with the reservations.

I find it hard to see how that would be enforceable if the train was short formed etc., quite apart from anything else

All Pendolinos have ABCDEFHJK, 11-car sets also have G and U. So C, and G and U where present, are always[1] unreserved. That way a short-form cannot cause reservation issues, it just reduces the number of unreserved coaches.

A swap to a Voyager is near enough unknown, but if it did happen in that case reservations wouldn't work at all so wouldn't be used.

[1] Sort of. It seems possible for some staff to force a reservation into coach C, which is an almighty nuisance where the reservations have failed.

Dougal2345 · 6 Jun 2019

bramling said:
The difference is that if reservations are displayed then those without reservations can find an unreserved seat with no difficulty. If no reservations are displayed then it becomes a complete gamble as to which seats are unreserved, which could lead to them having to move many times. In my view that’s clearly unreasonable, and evidently most TOCs agree as most have a policy that no reservations displayed means no reservations apply.

But if we accept that an unreserved ticket is just a contract to get you from A to B, with no guarantee of a seat at all (you may have to stand all the way), I can't see how a passenger can grumble about being asked to move if they're lucky enough to bag a seat.

"I didn't mind the idea of standing all the way from Bournemouth to Birmingham - but when I found a seat for half the journey, and was then asked to move, well, that was just too much!"

WelshBluebird · 6 Jun 2019

Dougal2345 said:
But if we accept that an unreserved ticket is just a contract to get you from A to B, with no guarantee of a seat at all (you may have to stand all the way), I can't see how a passenger can grumble about being asked to move if they're lucky enough to bag a seat.

"I didn't mind the idea of standing all the way from Bournemouth to Birmingham - but when I found a seat for half the journey, and was then asked to move, well, that was just too much!"

The problem isn't being asked to move once. It is being asked to move multiple times at potentially every stop because you'd have no idea if the seat you just moved to is reserved or not.
Sure, being asked to move once half way through your journey would be annoying but you'd be able to live with it.
Being asked to move 3 times at every single stop would very quickly drain the will to live from you!

Saperstein · 6 Jun 2019

What is the rule if the coach your reservation is in simply fails to be part of the consist that day?

On Tuesday morning I was booked a seat in coach “H” of a Virgin voyager, thus expecting a 10 car, but only a single 5 car unit turned up from Barton under Needwood depot (ECS).

I challenged a member of Virgin staff who got off the train (I think she was the TM and borded at Crewe?) and she told me to find a seat in coach “C”.

At that stage none of the coaches were labelled (they are labelled on the electronic displays on Voyagers) but I got on what I assumed to be the correct coach and sat down.

On departure the signs confirmed I was in the correct coach and a tannoy announcement was made apologising for the short form and explaining that a unit had failed at Wembley that morning?

Anyway both my tickets were advanced that day, what would of been my position if I had no seat (I’m on crutches and can’t stand until Euston). Would I have had to buy a new ticket ?

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2019

Saperstein said:
Anyway both my tickets were advanced that day, what would of been my position if I had no seat (I’m on crutches and can’t stand until Euston). Would I have had to buy a new ticket ?

If there is no available seat suitable, you should approach someone in a priority seat and ask them to allow you to take it instead, that's what they are for.

If they won't, ask the guard to assist with this. He might just take the easy option and upgrade you to 1st.

Sprinter153 · 6 Jun 2019

Anecdotally speaking there are a lot of XC train managers who will announce that reservations are still in place if not displayed. Some will even amend the reservation screens on Voyagers to say 'may be reserved'.

It seems to be a policy endorsed by XC because they also have non-seat-specific reservation labels which say that the seat is reserved at some point in the journey. When Avantix Mobile (the old mobile ticket issuing system) was still around ISTR it could be used to print emergency labels on Common Stock, which was much more customer- friendly.

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2019

Voyagers are the biggest issue because the screens don't work more often than they do. They should switch them all off and revert to paper.

Sprinter153 · 6 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Voyagers are the biggest issue because the screens don't work more often than they do. They should switch them all off and revert to paper.

Again, anecdotally, reliability on the HST equipment seems to have waned since Laira took over maintenance.

Starmill · 6 Jun 2019

Dougal2345 said:
If someone hasn't reserved a seat, they should be prepared to move or stand in order to make way for someone who has reserved a seat.

Why? I usually don't reserve a seat. I generally would not be prepared to give my seat to someone else. There is no logic in that argument. I go so far as to avoid sitting in a priority seat wherever possible for exactly this reason.

I do get frustrated at the bad manners of people who ask me to move though, when I have gone to the trouble of specifically selecting an unreserved seat that is not a priority seat. If an unreserved area is available on the train I will try first to sit in there, and yet still I am sometimes asked to move by people who claim to have reserved seats. Finally, I am even asked to move by people who claim to have reserved seats on trains where no seat reservations were available, such as London to Crewe on West Midland Trains.

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2019

Starmill said:
I do get frustrated at the bad manners of people who ask me to move though, when I have gone to the trouble of specifically selecting an unreserved seat that is not a priority seat. If an unreserved area is available on the train I will try first to sit in there, and yet still I am sometimes asked to move by people who claim to have reserved seats. Finally, I am even asked to move by people who claim to have reserved seats on trains where no seat reservations were available, such as London to Crewe on West Midland Trains.

Sit in the window side priority seat. I have never, ever had a request to be unseated from that except where it was reserved by someone else. The ones at the far end of Coach A on the Pendolino are particularly good as any normal "priority seat" case wouldn't go for them as they are as far as you can get from the door!

GodAtum · 6 Jun 2019

rdrdrd said:
I travel from Bath to London Paddington each day and since the new IET / 800’s were introduced have had consistent luck in getting a seat.

I’m always careful not to sit in a reserved seat as I’ve got lots of work to get on with generally and just want to get on with it. This morning on finding a table of four unoccupied in a carriage seemingly without seat reservations I sat down and got by bag unpacked. A man came along and said ‘you’re in my seat’ and I said ‘I don’t think there are any reservations’, we had a bit of back and forth with him getting angrier and angrier, saying that he was going to move me himself, and my pointing out that this would be assault and that I didn’t want to end up sitting in someone else’s seat. For full context and disclosure it ended up being a lightly loaded train and indeed stayed that way to Paddington.

Having read this forum for the last year or so I’ve ended up with the opinion that in the event of no reservations being indicated that reservations are lost. I know that this isn’t everyone’s position but in my defence and as I’ve said, I travel every day and spend 6 hours travelling to and from work so I feel like I do deserve to sit down especially if there’s not a reservation.

I said if he was unhappy, to get a member of train staff and I could talk to them... at that point bizarrely GWR’s ‘Director of Project Operations’ who I won’t name but he’s googleable rolled up (he travels from bath too but normally in 1st class) and asked what the problem was. The angry reservation holder said that I was in his seat, I explained that if I moved that I’d end up sitting in someone else’s seat - he (the GWR chap) turned distinctly unfriendly at this point. I said to the angry passenger with the reservation that ‘it’s ok he’ll probably upgrade you to first class’ at which point the GWR chap said ‘it’s none of my business’ then slapped his down on my shoulder saying that I’d made my position quite clear and he took the man off...probably to 1st class.

It was the oddest encounter I’ve had on a train and I feel whilst not wanting to make a fuss about, it a fairly senior member of GWR’s management really mishandled something that was fundamental his companies fault - he could have just taken the angry bearded man away and not lectured, patronised and (gently) hit one of his customers who has incidentally spent about an unfathomable amount (over £50k) with his company over the last 3 years.

I think I just wanted to get it off my chest but will be interested in your thoughts. My wife thinks I should complain to GWR for the physical contact.

Why didnt you ask to see this ticket? if he had a valid reservation ticket I would have apologised and moved.

Starmill · 6 Jun 2019

GodAtum said:
Why didnt you ask to see this ticket?

Why would any passenger on a train have the right to inspect a ticket?

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2019

Starmill said:
Why would any passenger on a train have the right to inspect a ticket?

If I'm asked to be unseated from a seat I believe to be unreserved, I near enough always do that. I have no right to, but absent that, sitting in a seat not marked as "reserved", the only way I'm moving is if the guard tells me to.

The main reason I do it is that people are often confused as to which coach they are in, particularly where the ticket shows an F, B or A suffix for facing, back or airline, and people think it means coach F, B or A. Most of the time I am indeed correct and can direct them to the right place.

If they refuse to provide evidence that the seat, not marked reserved, that I am sitting in is indeed reserved, then I will not be moving unless instructed to by a member of the traincrew.

Starmill · 6 Jun 2019

Dougal2345 said:
"I didn't mind the idea of standing all the way from Bournemouth to Birmingham - but when I found a seat for half the journey, and was then asked to move, well, that was just too much!"

I would absolutely refuse to stand from Bournemouth to Birmingham. Therefore, if I took a vacant, obviously unreserved seat at Bournemouth, and then the train became full and standing later on, that is why I would categorically refuse to move from the seat for anyone trying to suggest the seat is theirs.

I am amazed you can't see why that is such a serious problem.

Seat reservation woes... and being slapped on my shoulder by a GWR Director

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