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Mayor of London reopens 'metro rail to TfL' debate

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rebmcr

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Having not seen a single peep from the Mayor's office about taking over franchised rail routes for over a year, this has popped up today. I find the timing very interesting, suggesting that Sadiq Khan believes that Chris Grayling is likely to be replaced soon as Secretary of State for Transport — Grayling of course being a long-time personal rival of Khan, and the the person who blocked the previous plans for TfL-isation.

https://www.facebook.com/MayorofLondon/posts/941212806224877

Mayor of London official Facebook page said:
For too long, Londoners have endured nightmare commutes because of Southern Rail's poor service. Transport for London should be given control of suburban rail - creating thousands of jobs in outer London and providing the better, reliable services we all need.

It is in relation to this article: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...t-rail-firm-for-passenger-trust-a4160581.html

Evening Standard said:
Southern ranked worst rail firm for passenger trust, report reveals

Southern has been ranked as the worst train company for public trust over the past two years, a report has revealed.

The rail firm received “notably low scores” for trust across the last four passenger surveys, Transport Focus analysis showed.

Its scores ranged from 17 per cent in spring and autumn 2017 to 22 per cent in the most recent survey in autumn last year.

These were the lowest scores of all operators included in the surveys.

Great Northern was the second worst for trust in the latest study, scoring 24 per cent.

South Western Rail and Thameslink followed, both on 27 per cent.

Southern has been engaged in a three-year dispute with the Rail, Maritime and Transport (RMT) union about guards on trains.

The dispute has resulted in industrial action and major disruption for commuters who use the firm’s rail service.

Great Northern and Thameslink services were crippled by the chaotic launch of new timetables in May 2018.

A spokesman for Govia Thameslink Railway, the parent company of Southern, Great Northern and Thameslink, said: "This report reflects the industry-wide issues surrounding the timetable changes last May.

"Passengers have been paid £17 million in additional industry compensation and we are now consulting the communities most affected on how we should invest a £15 million fund dedicated to improving their journeys.

"Punctuality and reliability are now firmly back on track, with record service levels on Southern, and we are running over 400 more services every weekday on the country's busiest network.

"We are working more closely with Network Rail to reduce the effects of infrastructure problems and have made some major improvements in communication to passengers at times of disruption."

RMT general secretary Mick Cash said: "For over three years RMT members have been warning that Southern is a basket case franchise, cutting corners on safety and service and not fit to run a railway.

"These latest shocking figures prove that we have been right all along."

The strongest trust performances were from Grand Central and Heathrow Express, each has consistently achieved scores of at least 70 per cent.

Chiltern, Merseyrail and Virgin Trains all recorded ratings which did not dip below 60 per cent over the four surveys.

Research group Transport Focus submitted its analysis to the Government-commissioned Rail Review, which will make recommendations about the future of Britain's railway.

The watchdog's chief executive Anthony Smith said: "There are some wide variations between train operators that keenly reflect the passenger experience.

"Public trust in the railway is fragile but has never been more important. Building a good relationship with passengers will need to be a central part of any reform programme for the railway.

"Even small delays can damage passenger trust, so punctual services and accurate information are essential.

"New rules now require 'right time' reporting to the minute. This makes operators accountable for even the smallest delay and will be key to rebuilding public trust and winning future customers."

The Rail Review is being chaired by former British Airways chief executive Keith Williams. His inquiry will conclude in the autumn.
 
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LeeLivery

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Southern has a lot of trust to build back up. The service was absolutely diabolical, however... since May 2018, I can't complain more than an annoyingly long time between NXG and London Bridge. From being late every day to being on time almost all the time, I don't think GTR are really an issue for most passengers at the moment.

As for Khan, LO's overcrowding is awful on the ELL and NLL and the service isn't as good as TfL like to pretend. TfL finances are in a state and its proposals to take over South London's suburban network is flawed. Instead of trying to expand TfL's empire, they should really just try to work together with the TOCs, not spend all day demonising them while running 1972 stock into the 2030s.
 

Bletchleyite

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It is notable that the WCML Southern services are now once again reasonably punctual and reliable and with all 8-car formations not overcrowded (and the units used seem to have had a decent clean, too). Indeed, with the present LNR debacle they are probably more punctual and reliable than the regular WCML services.
 

aleggatta

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The interesting thing I find with Southern, is pre GTR they were pretty damn good at what they did, and what I heard from insiders is the 'Southern' style of management was supposed to run GTR, but because TL/GN franchise staff started GTR first, it went the FCC way and turned into a sack of.... manure? I mean this might just be complete speculation and may be completely wrong given the details that came out of the franchise commitments (extending DOO being the big one)
 

hwl

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The interesting thing I find with Southern, is pre GTR they were pretty damn good at what they did, and what I heard from insiders is the 'Southern' style of management was supposed to run GTR, but because TL/GN franchise staff started GTR first, it went the FCC way and turned into a sack of.... manure? I mean this might just be complete speculation and may be completely wrong given the details that came out of the franchise commitments (extending DOO being the big one)
That is what I was hearing too...
Lots of ex Southern managers popping up in interesting places round the world
 

hwl

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Having not seen a single peep from the Mayor's office about taking over franchised rail routes for over a year, this has popped up today. I find the timing very interesting, suggesting that Sadiq Khan believes that Chris Grayling is likely to be replaced soon as Secretary of State for Transport — Grayling of course being a long-time personal rival of Khan, and the the person who blocked the previous plans for TfL-isation.

https://www.facebook.com/MayorofLondon/posts/941212806224877



It is in relation to this article: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/tra...t-rail-firm-for-passenger-trust-a4160581.html

TfL started a renewed push in the week before Easter this year but it didn't get much coverage due to the timing. Still under estimating the costs, challenges and they don't have the money needed to make the changes. My gut feeling is that they know the level of real fare evasion and reckon they could make mint out of proper enforcement and hope that DfT will provide hefty subsidy to help them take it over not realising the revenue potential, the problem is that DfT aren't that stupid and if the new franchise starts bringing in the money it will be harder for TfL to takeover at some point in the future.
 

CarltonA

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Khan is suggesting that TfL taking over suburban rail would create thousands of jobs in outer London. Surely any takeover would invoke TUPE transfers and few if any new jobs. I personally don't want further Londonisation outside the boundaries of Greater London.
 

ScotGG

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We're all assuming a new chancellor wouldn't reverse, at least in part, the cuts currently being implemented which would help a TfL takeover. There's no doubt it has strong support from both right and left in London.

In terms of funds, Southeastern at least is an open goal. Huge income being missed due to barriers open or non-existent at 90% of stations that aren't the terminals (and even there in recent times open far more than a few years ago). Of course franchises could do this under the DfT but this issue goes back 20 years and has never been tackled to any real degree with every award and extension (which is a lot).
 

ScotGG

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Khan is suggesting that TfL taking over suburban rail would create thousands of jobs in outer London. Surely any takeover would invoke TUPE transfers and few if any new jobs. I personally don't want further Londonisation outside the boundaries of Greater London.

I'm curious about the job claims, however having seen the effects of late-night staffing after a TfL takeover, people do feel safer using stations and businesses around them prosper.

Also TfL may be better at seeking out housebuilding revenue in areas (eg rebuild a station with homes above) than NR if they take the lead on it which would create jobs.
 

ComUtoR

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I've never really been clear on what he actually wants. Does he want 'control' as in some for of oversight/devolution from the Dft or does he actually want to break the TOCs up and have a single Tfl TOC ? I didn't think Tfl actually run a TOC Who would actually run the TOC/TOCs ?
 

Bald Rick

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The interesting thing I find with Southern, is pre GTR they were pretty damn good at what they did, and what I heard from insiders is the 'Southern' style of management was supposed to run GTR, but because TL/GN franchise staff started GTR first, it went the FCC way and turned into a sack of.... manure? I mean this might just be complete speculation and may be completely wrong given the details that came out of the franchise commitments (extending DOO being the big one)

That is what I was hearing too...
Lots of ex Southern managers popping up in interesting places round the world

It was more subtle than that.

GoVia won the franchise, so all the FCC managers assumed they were for the chop, and most of the best ones left.

But FCC was taken over first, so Southern Managers assumed that the FCC managers would get their foot in the door so some of the best ones left.
 

duncanp

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So Sadiq Khan wants to repeat the roaring success of the introduction of new trains on the Gospel Oak - Barking line at Southern does he?

Given this, and his decimation of bus services in London (another round of cuts coming on Saturday week, and more to come in October) I can't help thinking that Donald Trump was at least partially right. (about him doing a terrible job as Mayor of London)
 

Bald Rick

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Back on topic - TfL is broke. They can’t afford it. And they are still trading on the success of the first overground lines; it’s pretty difficult not to come out smelling of roses when you chuck a couple of billion on 30odd miles of railway. The WA Inners is a much more realistic example of what would happen on the rest of the network.
 

ScotGG

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Since taking over the WA they've increasesed passenger numbers at stations like Hackney from 2.3m to 4m a year in two years. Not bad going.

Again though, with funding a new chancellor and DfT without Grayling can mean things change quickly on that front.
 

Bald Rick

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Since taking over the WA they've increasesed passenger numbers at stations like Hackney from 2.3m to 4m a year in two years. Not bad going.

Again though, with funding a new chancellor and DfT without Grayling can mean things change quickly on that front.

How much of that is change of operator, and how much is Oyster?
 

Kite159

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How much of that is change of operator, and how much is Oyster?

And how much is that down to having the ticket barriers operating full time rather than at random times like it was under GA.

Or how much is that due to passengers from Hackney Central walking via the covered way to leave at Hackney Downs to reduce their walking distance?
 

Bald Rick

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And how much is that down to having the ticket barriers operating full time rather than at random times like it was under GA.

Or how much is that due to passengers from Hackney Central walking via the covered way to leave at Hackney Downs to reduce their walking distance?

Agreed. Neither of which need TfL to make it happen.
 

bb21

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The one thing I will give TfL is its staff visibility on lines taken over. Other than that I agree West Anglia is a good example of what is to come, especially if you take new trains out of the equation (as new franchises all seem to be going for them atm).

I very rarely use buses these days given how slow they are but it seems that every time I try to use a bus service in central London these days there has been changes from the previous time.
 

rebmcr

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So Sadiq Khan wants to repeat the roaring success of the introduction of new trains on the Gospel Oak - Barking line at Southern does he?

Given this, and his decimation of bus services in London (another round of cuts coming on Saturday week, and more to come in October) I can't help thinking that Donald Trump was at least partially right. (about him doing a terrible job as Mayor of London)

You can't really blame Bombardier's eff-up on TfL, and I remain unconvinced that the bus shakeup is unnecessary. There were clearly too many fresh-air-movers in Zone 1 previously.
 

hwl

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Since taking over the WA they've increasesed passenger numbers at stations like Hackney from 2.3m to 4m a year in two years. Not bad going.

Again though, with funding a new chancellor and DfT without Grayling can mean things change quickly on that front.
Southern got similar % uplifts at many metro stations when they gated ans staffed properly in 09/10.
The problems is this is an expensive step to make and has to be build into a franchise, as the planning and execution takes longer than any individual direct award period
 

700007

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I am not too sure if the Overground is in the right position to expand right now. TfL is underestimating the challenges of doing this, and is not properly assessing the costs vs benefits of doing this right now.

London Overground in particular has taken a very bad hit in terms of reputation as of late with a lot of customers losing satisfaction over a number of debacle, recurring problems or timetable shake ups that whilst may or may not be in their control, TfL could have made more active attempts to try and reduce the impact of this.

  • The Gospel Oak to Barking line obviously is the first one. The line has had a very rough 5 or so years now right through from the botched electrification scheme to trying to introduce new trains. Whilst obviously Network Rail is responsible for the electrification programme and Bombardier responsible for the late delivery of trains, TfL didn't make any plan 2s until it was too late and were far too optimistic. These actions ultimately ended up with the line losing all of its diesel trains and being reduced to a half hourly service with every other train cancelled.
  • The latest timetable change on the Watford DC has also caused quite a bit of upset with trains that used to be an evenly spread every 20 minute service now being 12-18-12-30 gaps. Obviously this is in preparation for the planned frequency increase to 4tph with the 4th path effectively being 'safeguarded' until enough trains are available to be used. However this will take a long while as all the 710s need to be introduced on the GOBLIN and bed in properly. I think for this reason TfL should have had this service change deferred to December when the trains would probably be available.
  • The timetable change last year on the North London line / West London line caused a lot of upset too. Trains that were evenly spaced now run at very irregular intervals and don't always run the full length of the line (South Acton terminators). This leads to some trains running empty as they are so close to another service in front whilst other trains are rammed full of passengers that have waited nearly half an hour for a train in the peak.
Just some of the woes London Overground has been facing in the last year.
 

bramling

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The interesting thing I find with Southern, is pre GTR they were pretty damn good at what they did, and what I heard from insiders is the 'Southern' style of management was supposed to run GTR, but because TL/GN franchise staff started GTR first, it went the FCC way and turned into a sack of.... manure? I mean this might just be complete speculation and may be completely wrong given the details that came out of the franchise commitments (extending DOO being the big one)

One way or other, FCC delivered a quite adequate service, at least on the GN side.
 

bramling

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There’s a lot of major issues with TFL rail services at the moment, with some quite deep issues relating to delivery, financing and operational competence. Whatever the rights of wrongs of greater TFL involvement (for what it’s worth personally I’m dead against it), the now definitely isn’t the right time for more of it.
 
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matt_world2004

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Khan is suggesting that TfL taking over suburban rail would create thousands of jobs in outer London. Surely any takeover would invoke TUPE transfers and few if any new jobs. I personally don't want further Londonisation outside the boundaries of Greater London.
The thousands of jobs it talks about is by stimulating demand on the the whole line resulting in more shops, businesses and housing construction

Considering the Heathrow connect wouldn't run for months on end the service that tfl rail is providing in West London is a huge improvement
 

i4n

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.... suggesting that Sadiq Khan believes that Chris Grayling is likely to be replaced soon as Secretary of State for Transport

Off on a slight tangent for a minute if you'd please excuse me....

The new PM coming in will, with almost 100% certainty, have a Cabinet re-shuffle to have their allies in the key roles such as SoS for Transport so depending on who gets that job it could well result in Grayling being ousted.
 

hwl

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Off on a slight tangent for a minute if you'd please excuse me....

The new PM coming in will, with almost 100% certainty, have a Cabinet re-shuffle to have their allies in the key roles such as SoS for Transport so depending on who gets that job it could well result in Grayling being ousted.
Transport is not really in the top key roles though so we could easily end up with someone worse just because the new PM needs to keep someone just outside the inner circle under close observation.
 
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swt_passenger

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Transport is really in the top the key roles though so we could easily end up with someone worse just because the new PM needs to keep someone just outside the inner circle under close observation.
Did you forget a “not” before really?
 

Bletchleyite

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You can't really blame Bombardier's eff-up on TfL, and I remain unconvinced that the bus shakeup is unnecessary. There were clearly too many fresh-air-movers in Zone 1 previously.

The fares system which previously penalised connections was the cause of this, and the move to allowing free connections and rationalising routes to a simpler service pattern is absolutely the right thing to do. I'd like to see it go far further - while I understand the reason (social inclusion and Tube congestion) for lower bus only fares, I would include bus rides (at the start, in the middle and at the end) in the price of a Tube journey for free too.

Hamburg is a huge city, and has about 10 bus routes penetrating its city centre. London will never get that low, but really it should be possible to do a Tube-like map of the bus routes, and if it's not there are simply too many of them. A sensible aim (not going to work everywhere) is that any main road in central London should have at most two routes on it.
 

Wolfie

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With regards to London trains central Govt pulls all subsidy from TfL, while still pumping loads of money from London taxes into basket cases like Northern, a decision accepted by Boris (who was more focused on his own national ambitions than his London job - now that was a complete waste of space who blew money for fun - rubbish buses, useless cablecar - if you want) and that is Khan's fault huh.... right!

If the West Midlands and North are given control over local services exactly why shouldn't that happen in London?
 
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