sjpowermac
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I would think this refers to the introduction of two rakes of Mk3 stock as an interim measure.
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TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress
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“220 brand new state-of-the-art intercity trains will be introduced between 2017 and 2020”
sjpowermac
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I’ve learned lots from the thread this week, especially that promising to increase capacity, whilst in reality decreasing it, is actually to be seen as a success
Then there was all the discussion on a Euro IIIa compliant loco sitting on the blocks at Lime Street. I suppose at least one upside to the lack of Nova 3 is that the citizens of Liverpool will be able to breath a little easier, at least for now.
Anyhow, that’s me done for railway politics, I’m off to spot some locos. I understand 68024 ‘Centaur’ was booked to work 0P68 Longsight to York this morning. 68032 ‘Destroyer’ was sat in York P SD last night having worked up from Scarborough. I reckon that’s a good candidate for today’s 0M68 York to Longsight.
Ooops! I forgot, we are not supposed to mention Class 68s on a thread about rolling stock that will be hauled by...Class 68s
Solent&Wessex
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Current rumours from some people involved is that Instructor Driver training on the Mk5As will not now commence until 9th July, due to software issues.
A revised date of September is being banded around as being the expected introduction date to allow for instructors and then sufficient drivers to be trained.
Assuming no further problems of course.
A revised date of September is being banded around as being the expected introduction date to allow for instructors and then sufficient drivers to be trained.
Assuming no further problems of course.
YorkshireBear
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September? 2021?
How did the railways manage in the late 1950s when 1,000s of new diesel units and locos, of many different classes, were introduced into service in just a couple of years, and when that form of traction was completely new to most lines and most of the workforce? If it had gone on at today's rate the last batch of Met-Cam DMUs would just about be entering service now.
I think you'll find that it didn't really go swimmingly well. Loads of dead-end classes, unreliability, stacks of money wasted, etc, etc.
Bletchleyite
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Yeah, I think peoples' views are affected by the great success of Classes 101 (which almost made its 50th year - 47, wasn't it?) and 37/47. Most other classes were far less successful.
transmanche
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Those are the words of Visit Northumberland, not TPE.
The same text is in the West Yorkshire document. Where do you think they got it from?
December 2017 matches the date in the Franchise Agreement.
transmanche
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Actually the text is quite different. The Leeds Chamber of Commerce text says:
Leeds Chamber of Commerce said:
transmanche
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I did. And it doesn't say “220 brand new state-of-the-art intercity trains will be introduced between 2017 and 2020” anywhere.
You said that text is in both items. It is in the Visit Northumberland piece but not in the Leeds Chamber of Commerce piece.
Ok mate let me highlight the number of times it mentions 2017 introduction.
Key benefits in your region
North East
New, longer trains from 2017 and all north-east services operated by new trains from late 2019
North West
New five carriage intercity trains replace existing three and four carriage trains from 2017
Yorkshire and the Humber
New five carriage trains replace existing three carriage trains from 2017
Key benefits in your region
North East
New, longer trains from 2017 and all north-east services operated by new trains from late 2019
North West
New five carriage intercity trains replace existing three and four carriage trains from 2017
Yorkshire and the Humber
New five carriage trains replace existing three carriage trains from 2017
transmanche
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Jolly good, but that's completely different to what you wrote in post #3512.
What you actually said was “220 brand new state-of-the-art intercity trains will be introduced between 2017 and 2020”. And I said those were the words of Vist Northumberland and not TPE. You insisted that "the same text is in the West Yorkshire [Leeds Chamber of Commerce] document". But it isn't.
Now you want to talk about completely different text. That's fine. So you made a mistake. We all do sometimes.
As for the "new longer trains from 2017", I think @sjpowermac already covered that. If you look back at First Group's actual Press Release on winning the franchise (issued 9 December 2015, the same day as the Leeds CC piece and the day before the Visit Northumberland piece) it says "220 brand new vehicles will be introduced by 2019", but doesn't mention anything about them being introduced into service from 2017.
I suspect that third parties have misunderstood or misinterpreted information supplied by First. For example, Visit Northumberland confusing 220 carriages with 220 trains.
sjpowermac
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Does anyone have a link to a franchise agreement with dates? I think unless we do then it’s all speculation.
There’s a copy here:
https://assets.publishing.service.g..._data/file/767851/tpe-franchise-agreement.pdf
There’s mention of ‘leasing’ IC100 (what later became Nova 3) from 02.11.2017 but I would think ‘leasing’ and ‘introducing’ would be two separate concepts.
The version linked to has the actual introduction dates redacted:
Though there is some useful information about Class 185 handback (does this give some clues?) on page 251
I think we might need a forum lawyer to decipher the late delivery information on page 212!
I think it says that if TPE try to save money by not introducing new stock in a timely fashion then they have to pay up. I doubt with the current situation they are saving money, so nothing to pay. (Happy for anyone more versed on contract law to correct that one, I nearly fell asleep reading it!).
My admiration to the folk trying to deal with this all round!
There’s a copy here:
https://assets.publishing.service.g..._data/file/767851/tpe-franchise-agreement.pdf
There’s mention of ‘leasing’ IC100 (what later became Nova 3) from 02.11.2017 but I would think ‘leasing’ and ‘introducing’ would be two separate concepts.
The version linked to has the actual introduction dates redacted:
Though there is some useful information about Class 185 handback (does this give some clues?) on page 251
I think we might need a forum lawyer to decipher the late delivery information on page 212!
I think it says that if TPE try to save money by not introducing new stock in a timely fashion then they have to pay up. I doubt with the current situation they are saving money, so nothing to pay. (Happy for anyone more versed on contract law to correct that one, I nearly fell asleep reading it!).
My admiration to the folk trying to deal with this all round!
sjpowermac
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...and before anyone asks, no I didn’t make the Freedom of Information request
Yes, the introduction dates for the new trains were redacted, however I believe the document states that the mk.3's had to be in "unrestricted passenger service" by 1 April 2017. That's over two years since extra capacity was supposed to be in service.
TBSchenker
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Nothing more than running around at 100mph and having beers in the evening.
All 195/331/397s and Mk 5as have been thoroughly tested there, but were they doing start/stop runs simulating stopping at stations, back up to 60/70mph and then braking again to simulate real world conditions? Doubt it b
You also have the question the competence of Freightliner and ROG who were contracted to do the commissioning, what experience have they had regarding testing brand new to the UK stock?
Also, the 802s seem to have had a very long testing window, considering they are fundamentally similar to the GWR 802s, one would expect a shorter testing period for them than the other fleets. Yes, infrastructure issues have delayed the introduction on the East Coast, but as far as I know not one of the new fleets has had any normal driver or guard trained on them.
YorkshireBear
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I think that is due to infrastructure compatability rather than unit testing as such on tpe.
sjpowermac
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Quite so on all the points you make.
Ah, those heady days of last summer when the Mk3s were canned, and the Nova 3s were ‘coming soon anyhow’
Bantamzen
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I love the instance on keeping to public sector contracts / franchise agreements on here. If only you all knew just how often these are badly researched, drawn up and understood by Whitehall officials. If you think the delays to rolling stock are bad, you should see some of the ones I have knowledge of in my job! I wouldn't trust some contract writers there to draw up a contract for delivering newspapers, let alone hundreds of millions of pounds of trains! This is why private companies so often seem to get away with delays!
sjpowermac
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There were some right gems in that TPE document. When I got to the bit where it stipulated the length of time for LED lighting to come on in vending machines I gave up
D6700
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I do remember having seen this before, but it's a great reminder of what was meant to be.
For the doubters, below is a tiny extract from last year's fleet diagrams that never quite happened as intended:
DIAGRAM : LT 499 SX FLEET : 068/0 LTP
Start Date : 21/05/2018 End Date : 07/12/2018
MkIII set until 10/08/18. MkVa set from 13/08/18.
D6700
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I have seen that kind of testing taking place at Velim.
Spartacus
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Anyone have any info on progress or are we just like kids moaning 'are we nearly there yet' and squabbling with the person next to us? 
Last edited:
SP Man
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In regards of Freightliner, I have been involved in testing, commissioning, new fleet introductions, etc for around 15 years. I have been involved in the introduction of the 185s, 350/3, 350/4, class 97/3's and ERTMS, NR DBSO. Trsting of upgrades with 323, 90s, etc. The Freightliner team on the Mk5a and originally on the 397s are again experienced testing drivers and again I trained them on the 185s when they tested those. A number of them have just come off 4 years f testing and commissioning the 379s. In Velim we only had access to driving on 1 day only and on that day comments where made. Since then we have worked very closely with the different companies when we have raised an issue. Unfortunately new trains are software driven and a very minor change to one thing alerts others that can then csusecother issues. For example the system was looking for the brake to release in a certain timescale, when an alteration was made the setting was out by milliseconds which would cause a fault to be shown. This was worked through and sorted. The Freightliner drivers and riding inspector are very competent and experienced in the testing and have more experience in loco hauled knowledge and issues with them than the final operator will have. May I ask what is your experience in testing, commissioning of new stock especially with a manufacturer new to the British market?
sjpowermac
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Anyone have any info on progress or are we just like kids moaning 'are we nearly there yet' and squabbling with the person next to us?
This week has seen a couple of test trips (or Fault Free Running?) along with lots of light engine trips for driver training/refresher.
Test trains/FFR this week have been:
68031 ‘Felix’ plus TP04
Wednesday 5th June 2019
MID-Carlisle-Crewe-MID
Thursday 6th June 2019
MID-Carlisle-Bletchley-MID
Crewe driver refresher trips (not sure of the locomotive)
These ran each day, Monday just the first out and back morning trip, rest of the week the same plus a return trip in the afternoon.
York driver refresher trips
Monday
68028 ‘Lord President’ four return trips York to Scarborough.
Tuesday
68028 same as Monday.
68032 ‘Destroyer’ four return trips Scarborough to York.
Wednesday
68028 same as Monday
Thursday
68028 two return trips York to Scarborough in the morning.
68032 Scarborough to York return, then back to York and onto the Parcel Siding.
Friday
68024 ‘Centaur’ 0P68 Longsight to York
68024 three return trips York to Scarborough and then 16:00 York to Scarborough.
So now we have:
68032 York P SD
68024 York driver refresher loco (Exam Road at York station)
68028 Scarborough driver refresher loco
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