Chase Line... Shambles..??

dangie · 5 Jun 2019

Following the completion of the Chase Line electrification, there appears to be quite a few issues with the running of the timetable. Trains either cancelled or stopping short of their final destination (Rugeley Trent Valley).

We all know that people complain when it's bad and not praise when it's good, but it seems to be so bad that the local Member of Parliament has got involved.
See her Facebook page below and all the comments:

Chase Line - Amanda Milling MP

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite · 5 Jun 2019

The entire LNR service post timetable change has been a shambles. If you want to travel punctually on the south WCML, you need the Southern service. Never thought I'd say that!

The_Train · 5 Jun 2019

The first few days of the Liverpool/Crewe to Euston services seemed to run quite smoothly but since then I've noticed lots of delays and cancellations (usually announced as reasons beyond LNWR's control like signalling issues, or being delayed behind other trains) particularly on the route via Birmingham and Northampton. Is it a case that they've added too many stopping points or is it just that the they're sending these services along already congested routes?

bramling · 5 Jun 2019

dangie said:
Following the completion of the Chase Line electrification, there appears to be quite a few issues with the running of the timetable. Trains either cancelled or stopping short of their final destination (Rugeley Trent Valley).

We all know that people complain when it's bad and not praise when it's good, but it seems to be so bad that the local Member of Parliament has got involved.
See her Facebook page below and all the comments:

Chase Line - Amanda Milling MP

That’s what happens when the service changes from a self-contained shuttle service to a through service to Euston, with the added complexity / risk of detachments and attachments at New Street.

Sadly this was widely predicted on here when the timetable changes were announced.

It’s particularly daft for the Chase Line as the layout allows a Rugeley to New Street shuttle service to run without the need for a reversal at New Street, which is what this timetable seems to attempt to avoid.

Bletchleyite · 5 Jun 2019

The_Train said:
The first few days of the Liverpool/Crewe to Euston services seemed to run quite smoothly but since then I've noticed lots of delays and cancellations (usually announced as reasons beyond LNWR's control like signalling issues, or being delayed behind other trains) particularly on the route via Birmingham and Northampton. Is it a case that they've added too many stopping points or is it just that the they're sending these services along already congested routes?

The actual issues are no worse than before, but the problem is that everything is interworked with everything else, so a problem at Runcorn will later affect a Chase Line stopper, or whatever, and it all knocks on to everything being in a mess by the end of each day pretty much without fail. It is all completely counter to any kind of common sense.

martinsh · 5 Jun 2019

dangie said:
Following the completion of the Chase Line electrification, there appears to be quite a few issues with the running of the timetable. Trains either cancelled or stopping short of their final destination (Rugeley Trent Valley).

Maybe they should try solving the problems by terminating trains short at the other end of the service (i.e. Euston) ? That would soon concentrate minds !!

swt_passenger · 5 Jun 2019

Hasn’t there been a fairly detailed discussion about all these interworking problems in the thread here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...le-may-2019-in-open-data-feeds.176894/page-31

Bletchleyite · 5 Jun 2019

martinsh said:
Maybe they should try solving the problems by terminating trains short at the other end of the service (i.e. Euston) ? That would soon concentrate minds !!

It's not particularly easy to do that due to the disruption it causes on a very heavily trafficked railway and so it only tends to be done if the line south of wherever they turn it is blocked completely (other than Northampton where it is practical). Though I have seen it done about a week ago, a LNR turned at Watford.

Kite159 · 5 Jun 2019

Crayonist time for me, the Chase line should go back to being a self contained shuttle with units doing something along the lines of:
Rugeley TV - (Aston) - New Street - (Soho) - Rugeley TV - (Soho) - New Street - International* - New Street - (Soho) - Rugeley TV.

The turnaround at New Street will be limited to a couple minutes like it was previously with the 170s, with the driver/guard not having to change ends. The service can have some recovery time built in at Rugeley after doing the International leg in case it gets caught up in congestion.

*Purely to do away with that hourly New Street - International stopper

The services from Euston can go continue to Lime Street, with the 3rd detaching an unit at either New Street (or Stafford) to run to Crewe via Stoke. At the Euston end, the Tring services are self contained using 319s, and the Crewe - Euston via the Trent Valley can interwork with Milton Keynes terminators.

SoccerHQ · 5 Jun 2019

Bit bemused why the new Walsall-London train has to even go to New Street tbh.

The Planner · 6 Jun 2019

SoccerHQ said:
Bit bemused why the new Walsall-London train has to even go to New Street tbh.

Which way is it going to go? its a joined up existing service so you cannot send it via Aston and ignore New St.

Wilts Wanderer · 6 Jun 2019

SoccerHQ said:
Bit bemused why the new Walsall-London train has to even go to New Street tbh.

Probably because the vast majority of passengers from the Walsall line want to go to New Street ? :rolleyes:

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2019

SoccerHQ said:
Bit bemused why the new Walsall-London train has to even go to New Street tbh.

Because it's a Walsall to New St service combined with a New St to Euston service, and nobody would be happy if those were lost.

DarloRich · 6 Jun 2019

SoccerHQ said:
Bit bemused why the new Walsall-London train has to even go to New Street tbh.

really? I suspect that the two obvious reasons are that most passengers form Walsall want New Street AND the fact it is an extended Euston to New Street service.

DarloRich · 6 Jun 2019

The_Train said:
The first few days of the Liverpool/Crewe to Euston services seemed to run quite smoothly but since then I've noticed lots of delays and cancellations (usually announced as reasons beyond LNWR's control like signalling issues, or being delayed behind other trains) particularly on the route via Birmingham and Northampton. Is it a case that they've added too many stopping points or is it just that the they're sending these services along already congested routes?

The latter.

Bletchleyite said:
The actual issues are no worse than before, but the problem is that everything is interworked with everything else, so a problem at Runcorn will later affect a Chase Line stopper, or whatever, and it all knocks on to everything being in a mess by the end of each day pretty much without fail. It is all completely counter to any kind of common sense.

agreed. The key test will be when it all goes properly TU for the first time.

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2019

DarloRich said:
agreed. The key test will be when it all goes properly TU for the first time.

Well, the 2242 off Euston was on time yesterday evening (though had gained about 7 minutes delay before getting to BLY due to some sort of problem at Cheddington - we stopped just short of the platform for a few minutes and the driver had a natter with the guard, a southbound train had also stopped in the platform but without doors open so clearly not a scheduled stop). That was a turn for the books, I think it's the first LNR train I've been on that has departed where I boarded on time since the change.

43074 · 6 Jun 2019

Kite159 said:
Crayonist time for me, the Chase line should go back to being a self contained shuttle with units doing something along the lines of:
Rugeley TV - (Aston) - New Street - (Soho) - Rugeley TV - (Soho) - New Street - International* - New Street - (Soho) - Rugeley TV.

The turnaround at New Street will be limited to a couple minutes like it was previously with the 170s, with the driver/guard not having to change ends. The service can have some recovery time built in at Rugeley after doing the International leg in case it gets caught up in congestion.

*Purely to do away with that hourly New Street - International stopper

The services from Euston can go continue to Lime Street, with the 3rd detaching an unit at either New Street (or Stafford) to run to Crewe via Stoke. At the Euston end, the Tring services are self contained using 319s, and the Crewe - Euston via the Trent Valley can interwork with Milton Keynes terminators.

To be honest the argument LNW were using was that joining services up across New Street freed up platform capacity. This was always a bit of a red herring with the Chase Line as the way they arrived from Aston and departed via Perry Barr meant that they only had five minute dwells at New Street and the service only needed four, efficient, self contained circuits. International is an added complication, especially with the eight or so other trains in the hour.

Kite159 · 6 Jun 2019

43074 said:
To be honest the argument LNW were using was that joining services up across New Street freed up platform capacity. This was always a bit of a red herring with the Chase Line as the way they arrived from Aston and departed via Perry Barr meant that they only had five minute dwells at New Street and the service only needed four, efficient, self contained circuits. International is an added complication, especially with the eight or so other trains in the hour.

In all fairness you could probably get rid of that International shuttle and put the stops on one of the other 3 trains per hour, and keep the Chase line services are doing balloon loops at New Street

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2019

Kite159 said:
In all fairness you could probably get rid of that International shuttle and put the stops on one of the other 3 trains per hour, and keep the Chase line services are doing balloon loops at New Street

That might not be a terrible idea, as it'd add a bit more slack into the whole thing, which it sorely needs.

SoccerHQ · 6 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Because it's a Walsall to New St service combined with a New St to Euston service, and nobody would be happy if those were lost.

Does Walsall still have the two Walsall-Wolves stoppers and the first Rugeley-Birmingham train or did one of those get combined?

If so 3 Walsall-Brum an hour which is fine. For those along the Rugeley-Cannock-Hendesford corridor having another London option is good but still logical to just go to Rugeley Trent Valley and get the fast one to Euston rather than the crawl around the Midlands and Buckinghamshire.

I dunno, lots was made on the local news about the great concectivity Walsall now had to London so I just assumed it would be speeded up a little as Walsall to New Street is already very well connected. Even squeeze in a spot at Aston if needs be.

causton · 6 Jun 2019

Honestly as someone who commutes from Birmingham to Milton Keynes every day on a mix of LNR and VT, I have found the latter to be worse at punctuality!

Bletchleyite · 6 Jun 2019

causton said:
Honestly as someone who commutes from Birmingham to Milton Keynes every day on a mix of LNR and VT, I have found the latter to be worse at punctuality!

Is that true after the timetable change? Could of course be that the LNR unpunctuality is knocking onto VT as well on the shared section around Brum and south of Leighton?

Kite159 · 6 Jun 2019

SoccerHQ said:
Does Walsall still have the two Walsall-Wolves stoppers and the first Rugeley-Birmingham train or did one of those get combined?

If so 3 Walsall-Brum an hour which is fine. For those along the Rugeley-Cannock-Hendesford corridor having another London option is good but still logical to just go to Rugeley Trent Valley and get the fast one to Euston rather than the crawl around the Midlands and Buckinghamshire.

I dunno, lots was made on the local news about the great concectivity Walsall now had to London so I just assumed it would be speeded up a little as Walsall to New Street is already very well connected. Even squeeze in a spot at Aston if needs be.

I believe the Walsall - Wolverhampton stoppers still operate, so there is 4 trains towards Birmingham from Walsall & Tame Bridge

The Planner · 6 Jun 2019

Kite159 said:
In all fairness you could probably get rid of that International shuttle and put the stops on one of the other 3 trains per hour, and keep the Chase line services are doing balloon loops at New Street

No you can't, the xx.54 would be caught by the XC Bournemouth, the xx.14 is a stopper anyway and the xx.33 would have to swap with the TfW and would be caught by the xx.50 Virgin. In the other direction the xx.05 from International would be caught by the xx.09 TfW and xx.13 Virgin. The xx.29 is caught by the xx.33 Virgin and xx.38 XC and the xx.45 is caught up too.

Kite159 · 6 Jun 2019

The Planner said:
No you can't, the xx.54 would be caught by the XC Bournemouth, the xx.14 is a stopper anyway and the xx.33 would have to swap with the TfW and would be caught by the xx.50 Virgin. In the other direction the xx.05 from International would be caught by the xx.09 TfW and xx.13 Virgin. The xx.29 is caught by the xx.33 Virgin and xx.38 XC and the xx.45 is caught up too.

Fair enough, it was an idea of freeing up a path between New Street & International

martinsh · 7 Jun 2019

The Planner said:
No you can't, the xx.54 would be caught by the XC Bournemouth, the xx.14 is a stopper anyway and the xx.33 would have to swap with the TfW and would be caught by the xx.50 Virgin. In the other direction the xx.05 from International would be caught by the xx.09 TfW and xx.13 Virgin. The xx.29 is caught by the xx.33 Virgin and xx.38 XC and the xx.45 is caught up too.

Could you not convert the TfW into the stopper as that carries fresh air anyway ?

The Planner · 7 Jun 2019

martinsh said:
Could you not convert the TfW into the stopper as that carries fresh air anyway ?

Making that into an all station stopper makes the schedule about 18 minutes, bearing in mind a 158 compared to a 350 isn't going to be ideal on that sort of service so it could reach 19/20 minutes with the extra dwell for end doors. If it left New St at xx.36 as it does now then it is going to be xx.56 before it gets to International, which isn't necessarily a problem. Where it goes wrong is coming back, it can't leave at xx.09 as it would screw up everything behind it and misses its slot at New St and onwards. It can't go earlier because of the LNWR/WMT departure at xx.05. Its a solution looking for a problem, the local when it was self contained caused no problems at all.

Bletchleyite · 7 Jun 2019

The Planner said:
Its a solution looking for a problem, the local when it was self contained caused no problems at all.

Nor did any of it.

The intention of stopping terminating at New St was to improve punctuality and reliability by removing dwells at the station. The demonstrable effect has been the opposite - to make punctuality and reliability very poor. Therefore, the changes should be reversed[1], and terminating at New St should be reinstated.

[1] Except the "Trent Valley wobble" changes; the Crewe-wobble-Brum service could terminate at New St as nobody within their right mind will use it to London.

dangie · 7 Jun 2019

It never fails to amaze me that these Allocations, Diagrams & Timetable changes are carefully worked out beforehand over months by 'experts' whose job these things are and they consistently make a cock-up of it.

Now I'm not knowledgeable at all in railway matters but many on this forum are. Over the last few months many have repeatedly said that these changes will result it the shambles what is appearing to be happening. Why can enthusiasts see it but experts whose job it is can't?

Or am I being unkind..??

Bletchleyite · 7 Jun 2019

I think it's because the diagrammers are pressured to overuse crews and units by the likes of the DaFT and the commercial departments of the TOCs, not because they are incompetent. It's quite possible they pushed back and said "it'll be unreliable" and the TOC just said "tough, do it anyway, we're paying you to".

Chase Line... Shambles..??

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member