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If announcements are prerecorded why not get them right?
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krus_aragon
Established Member
...and tell them to get their uniform replaced?
PHILIPE
Veteran Member
Although progress is slow TFW are slowly getting to grips with the bilingual announcements both on trains and on stations. This, according to the TOC, includes the correct Welsh pronunciation aspect
Signalling
Member
Not heard this personally but let me guess: Al-ses-ter instead of Ol-ster?
Yeps
Even if you don't want to pronounce it like 'Ulster', it could be Al-sester
It's the splitting of 'cester' that makes it sound wrong
So what's the rule for that - why is it pronounced Con-wee rather than Con-uee?
Technically
Glenn1969
Established Member
Alcester hasn't got a station anymore so you won't hear it pronounced by any station announcer. It closed in 1964
I don't know, it will be because of the letters around it though - or in this case the letter, I can't think (with my admittedly pidgin Welsh) of any word where Y as the final letter isn't "ee".
Which is why people describe it as a phonetic language - you don't need to know the rules, with enough experience of it you just instinctively know.
Much the same as Y in English, as it happens!
Glenn1969
Established Member
How does the announcer at Chester get on trying to pronounce Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge?
Slaithwaite is also another bone of contention....
krus_aragon
Established Member
Two vowels combine like that to form a dipthong. (I'm not sure that the 'w' acts as a consonant in "Conwy", but I may be corrected on that.)
The difference between the two sounds exists because of the same long vs. short (or stressed vs unstressed) difference, as with a single vowel.
Following the "stress is on the penultimate syllable" rule, Conwy is stressed 'Con-wy'. Dwygyfylchi is treated as a composite word like Betws-y-Coed (Dwy = two (f.), cyfylchi = hill forts), so each portion is stressed on its penultimate syllable, thus: 'Dwy-gyf-yl-chi'. Note that the 'wy' is stressed in one, but not the other.
To my ear, I pronounce them very similarly, so much so that I had to say them over and again a few times in order to identify the difference. I'd describe the difference as putting the emphasis on the 'w' (in 'Dwygyfylchi') or on the 'y' (in Conwy).
It may be, depending on your location and linguistic background, that your pronunciation of Conwy is influenced by the Anglicised form "Conway" (which is deprecated nowadays). Welsh-speaking locals tend to pronounce the placename different to English-speaking visitors, and English-speaking locals may be anywhere in-between. Dwygyfylchi wasn't popular enough with the tourists to develop an Anglicised form; either that or they baulked at trying to read it and just gave up!
krus_aragon
Established Member
That's a good rule-of-thumb, I'll try to remember that for sharing with other learners
I've had a good ten-minute think about this, and have struggled to think of any exceptions. I eventually came up with two.
Any word with more than one syllable that ends with a 'y' will have the stress on the previous syllable, so the 'y' will get an 'ee' or 'ih' sound, depending on your regional accent. (I don't think there is a loan word hiding in the dictionary (with an unusual stress pattern) that ends in that 'uh' sound.
The only hope of finding one seems to be in the monosyllabic words, which are irregular and can have a long or short vowel. This is where I found my two examples: 'fy' (meaning 'my', pronounced "vuh") and 'dy' (meaning 'your', pronounced "d'uh"). Relatively common connecting words, but they didn't spring to mind immediately by any means. And I haven't been able to find any more, either.
swtandgw
Member
There's also a lot of other places in Norfolk that can throw people off with the pronunciation. Happisburgh is one example: an American would think Happis-BURRG (with the -burgh like in Pittsburgh, PA, as opposed to Edinburgh), but the place is actually pronounced 'Haysborough' ('haze-bruh') by locals. Thankfully, Happisburgh has no station, so there wouldn't be any problems with bad pronunciation.
As for Wymondham, there's another Wymondham in existence in Leicestershire, but unlike the Norfolk Wymondham, the Leicestershire one is pronounced phonetically.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Fairly obviously consult a Welsh speaker and ask them to phonetically set out the correct pronunciation of those places and then load it into the system so it offers a decent attempt at pronunciation.
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Ant158
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It’s like Whalley in Lancashire. The new automatic announcements with the recent class 150 refurbs say it as Wh ‘A’ lley rather than
Wall’ ey.
Surely it wouldn’t take much for them to check they are pronouncing place names correctly.
Wall’ ey.
Surely it wouldn’t take much for them to check they are pronouncing place names correctly.
My advice would be to not worry too much - it might be the place in Britain that gets the most different pronunciations, including from people who've lived there all their life. (I'm from there - well nearby)
Ignore people trying to explain "ll", they usually start talking about tongues and you'll end up pronouncing "ch" instead at best. Which nobody will complain about.
The most important thing to know about how to pronounce Llandudno is simply that the "u" should be like an "i" in "bin" in English .
telstarbox
Established Member
"Please have a sh*t, shower and shave before you board this train"?
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tomwills98
Member
As earlier in the thread Welsh is phonetic. LLan, the trickiest part of the word. Try to spread your tongue across the roof of your mouth and have the sides touch both of your molars then blow air through. Should sound like a snake with a lisp. The rest is easy is broken down into syllables, (Ll)an-dud-no. dud, as in a dud bomb or bullet, No, opposite of yes.
The only time it differs if it's in a sentence where the LL mutates to L, making it sound like a normal English L
I can only imagine how severe the Welsh names are mispronounced!
Unfortnatley for us Scots, the same issue exists. Try listening to the Highlander Sleeper announcements at Euston or Crewe - painful listening to any fellow Scot.
I've always wanted to travel overnight from London to see my good feudalist friends Blair at Toll and King Gus E
Rockhopper
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krus_aragon
Established Member
I'm afraid I'll have to correct you there. The pronunciation you've described is one used by a lot of visitors, and was originally used on the Class 175 announcements, but was later re-recorded with a more "traditional" pronunciation. (It's like as how visitors said "Conwy" as "Conway". Some still use this pronunciation, but it's generally frowned upon by locals.)
A better guide to pronunciation would be:
- Resist the urge to pronounce the "dud" like the English word. "did" is much closer to the mark.
- The "no" sounds like the "no" of the English word "knot", as opposed to the word "know"
Llanigraham
On Moderation
I'm afraid I'll have to correct you there. The pronunciation you've described is one used by a lot of visitors, and was originally used on the Class 175 announcements, but was later re-recorded with a more "traditional" pronunciation. (It's like as how visitors said "Conwy" as "Conway". Some still use this pronunciation, but it's generally frowned upon by locals.)
A better guide to pronunciation would be:
So try aiming for "Llan-did-knot", but without the final 't'.
- Resist the urge to pronounce the "dud" like the English word. "did" is much closer to the mark.
- The "no" sounds like the "no" of the English word "knot", as opposed to the word "know"
Nearer "Llan - did - Know"
And don't start me on regional variations in our wonderful language!!
I originally learnt Welsh in the North Presceli's and now "suffer" Machynlleth Welsh.
I'm afraid I'll have to correct you there. The pronunciation you've described is one used by a lot of visitors, and was originally used on the Class 175 announcements, but was later re-recorded with a more "traditional" pronunciation. (It's like as how visitors said "Conwy" as "Conway". Some still use this pronunciation, but it's generally frowned upon by locals.)
A better guide to pronunciation would be:
So try aiming for "Llan-did-knot", but without the final 't'.
- Resist the urge to pronounce the "dud" like the English word. "did" is much closer to the mark.
- The "no" sounds like the "no" of the English word "knot", as opposed to the word "know"
Spot on!
adrock1976
Established Member
Moving away from Welsh pronunciations, I have heard on the Carlisle - Chathill train the automated announcements pronouncing the destination how somebody from France would pronounce it.
Or put simply, it sounds like a hill being covered in Number 2 specimens.
Which pronunciation is right - the recoded one, or the get out of jail free card of "say what you see"?
Or put simply, it sounds like a hill being covered in Number 2 specimens.
Which pronunciation is right - the recoded one, or the get out of jail free card of "say what you see"?
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