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HS2: the rolling stock bids
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And Talgo makes conventional stock as well.
HS2 will need conventional (or tilting) stock, so Talgo will provide just that if they win.
I've done the modelling for another bidder, so know what will and won't work. Given that 4 of the 5 bidders came to the same conclusions (different to Talgo) with several getting multiple opinions on the matter, I'd go with Talgo not getting it right. The ITT wasn't that clear in this regards but the HS2 ITT precursor work also clearly shows what they expected and watered down versions of this ended up in the ITT.
The ITT very much required reading between the lines which might have disadvantage bidders less familiar with the UK.
Indeed but the smaller number of them also causes concern!
They're definitely less good for passenger boarding/unloading than the other offerings, but the shorter coach lengths will mitigate that somewhat. I have not done the extensive modelling that I'm sure you've been through, but by the sounds of it they've met the ITT requirements to the letter and no further.
The problem is what the letter is isn't clear in this case. Talgo's modelling may say it is ok but HS2 may not agree with their modelling when they do their own as only key assumptions and requirements were defined.
The circulation space needed inside the doors to make things work* also don't equate to narrow doors as you need a large vestibule anyway (but this isn't directly stated either).
* e.g. so someone faffing to get into the closest window seat to door involving the person in the aisle seat getting up and blocking everything requires a decent standing space to absorb those getting on so the doors can be closed and train start moving.
Also have they looked at the effect of wheel chair space locations (you effectively lose that door) and those with less mobile e.g. with walking stick or young children in their calculations. The wheelchair and priority seats are all specified nearest the doors.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
In looks I'd say that trounces the lot. To be fair, all of CAF's UK products are quite good looking in their own way, the WCML EMUs particularly so.
But is it Cheap as F.........
But is it Cheap as F.........
squizzler
Established Member
Looking at the position of the sun behind the train in the picture, the implication seems to be that the CAF is fast enough to catch up with its own shadow.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Because Talgo like their "innovative" single axle design which they've used on some Spanish high-speed trains.
They may like it but many of their non Spanish customers don't.
In looks I'd say that trounces the lot. To be fair, all of CAF's UK products are quite good looking in their own way, the WCML EMUs particularly so.
But is it Cheap as F.........
The other operators have at least complied with the colour scheme requirement in the renders they published (e.g. lack of contrasting doors being the biggest)
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Exactly, they seem to favour it quite a bit, though I imagine they could produce a conventional bogie design, either articulated or not.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
But they have to do that to be able to run on Spain's dual-gauge network (their version of classic-compatible).
It also forces short and rather fussy coach lengths.
We haven't got that constraint (although we have others on our classic network).
CAF also has a similar design for its HS trains in Spain (but with Alstom electrics; Talgo use Bombardier).
I've been on both types, and in my experience the Talgo rides better than the CAF.
Neither are as good as the TGV or ICE clones.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Yes, but we don't need guage-variable trains - so why buy single-axle trailer train sets?
If Talgo offer a conventional bogied train service that meets the specs then fine, otherwise buy something else.
Along the bay
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Would any of them be produced in their Newport factory in the event of a successful win ?.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Would be nice to think so.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
One of the benefits of CAF's single-axle* design is that it offers a low floor. However high platforms are specified for HS2, and the narrowness of the classic loading gauge below platform level means low floor isn't sensible for HS2. The other benefit, gauge changing, obviously isn't either.
In any case, I'm pretty sure all CAF's highest speed designs have two-axle bogies and I doubt HS2 would want to be the first customer for a anything as novel as a high speed train with single-axle* bogies.
*Actually there's not even an axle, the wheels are independent, which means they can't rely on the normal means of keeping the wheels aligned with the track. All sorts of dynamic ride issues are possible at higher speeds.
In any case, I'm pretty sure all CAF's highest speed designs have two-axle bogies and I doubt HS2 would want to be the first customer for a anything as novel as a high speed train with single-axle* bogies.
*Actually there's not even an axle, the wheels are independent, which means they can't rely on the normal means of keeping the wheels aligned with the track. All sorts of dynamic ride issues are possible at higher speeds.
squizzler
Established Member
Do you really think that Talgo cross their fingers, thrash their stock along at 200mph, and hope it stays on the track? Aside from operator error, it does.
I think this represents a very blinkered attitude to innovation. Talgo developed their system as a broad gauge train and it only subsequently found a niche as a gauge changer. Variable gauge can also be done on traditional bogies so it is not like the need for such a capability would have led to the invention of Talgo.
For a while after BR research developed fast four wheeled freight wagons that stayed on the track it seemed that the bogie could be dispensed with in most applications (hello, pacer!). The German Aerospace institute is working on similar ideas with modern active mechatronics. It could well be in the more energy scarce future that the traditional rail bogie looks to railwaymen as an unbelievably heavy lump of ironmongery to drag about.
I suspect it is no coincidence that Talgo emerged on broad gauge because the wider track clearly requirers larger bogies than narrow or standard gauge. This leads me to speculate that if we had gone with Brunel's broad gauge the Talgo system would have evolved sooner and by now be the norm for passenger stock.
I don't claim superiority for Talgo trains, but they clearly have a successful product, and I welcome diversity. If you only want a Velaro knock off, CRRC will sell you one.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
Based purely on the renders, only the Spanish bids have avoided passing through Ugly Junction and being checked at every signal...
hexagon789
Veteran Member
They have a standard guage version in the US. Admittedly it only does 79mph (though could do 125 if allowed). I'm not saying Talgo would palm off a single-axle system but it is possible.
Along the bay
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But they won't be on ancient Victorian rails at least not all the time like a pacer is so that might help a bit.Are you guys happy with the idea of single axles after what the Pacers have done to your arses ?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Speaking as a former employee of BR Research ... though not involved personally in any of the projects mentioned. The innovation you mention was about understanding how a wheelset runs steadily on the track and how to make it do so at higher speeds. It also contributed to the APT and the Mk3 coach. One of the last BR Research developments was the Advanced Suburban (inside frame) Bogie which was licensed by Bombardier and I think it was mentioned somewhere above that their HS2 offer includes a descendent. I don't think anyone believed the bogie was obsolete, other than perhaps for cash-strapped branch lines with a 75mph maximum.
No I don't think that Talgo would just cross their fingers etc. But the Talgo (meaning for the purposes of this post the designs with a single "axle") dispenses with the axle itself and therefore the means of ensuring stability mentioned above doesn't apply. So, considering that HS2 wants to employ only proven technology, if I were them I would be very cautious about being the first user to push the Talgo system out to higher speeds than used anywhere else. To consider doing so there would have to be some big benefit over conventional or articulated bogies, and to be honest I don't see any significant benefit that is relevant to HS2.
squizzler
Established Member
I understand that the 360kph speed of HS2 is beyond any commercial service elsewhere in the world, so everybody is out on a limb somewhat. As regards the speeds people do run their HSR today the Talgo is operating with the best of them at 320kph or so. Also on the subject of unproven running gear technology Siemens' Velaro Novo is marketed as having inside frame bogies which - unlike Talgo's system - are not in squadron service at Very High Speed to the best of my knowledge.
route:oxford
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Not really out on a limb surely?
They'll test the 320kph units beyond their ordinary maximum speed by at least 10%, that takes you to 352kph.
That's just 5mph less than the operating speed of hs2.
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