Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, but you wouldn't need dedicated bookings and customer services staff etc. Having to manage those departments for 2 train pairs a day is very costly - it's one of the reasons the likes of Hamburg-Koeln-Express failed.
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Caledonian Sleeper
- Thread starter Essexman
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No, but you wouldn't need dedicated bookings and customer services staff etc. Having to manage those departments for 2 train pairs a day is very costly - it's one of the reasons the likes of Hamburg-Koeln-Express failed.
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MrEd
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Separating the franchises was bizarre, to say the least, and something which I never to this day have been able to understand, not least because it removes the possibility for cross-subsidisation (I.e. for some of the costs of running the sleeper to be funded by profits made from profitable Scotrail services in the central belt, as well as the taxpayer and fare-payer). It must cost a fortune to run CS simply because they have to employ their own management team and other office staff (e.g. dedicated staff in the guest services centre), whereas in the past Scotrail’s management and office staff could be used. Also, the recruiting and training of dedicated guards to work the Highlander north of Edinburgh cannot have been cheap, whereas in the past these would have been Scotrail conductors drawn from the regular roster (I believe Edinburgh, Queen Street, Perth and Fort William conductors all had Sleeper work as well as day trains). It is what it is, but I wonder what benefit the Scottish government thought could be derived from this?
Scotrail84
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If it collapses, possibly.
Iskra
Established Member
The best reason I can think of is for clear accounting; it makes it much easier to see where exactly the sleepers are losing money hand over fist, so you know where you need to focus. But, paradoxically, this split will have just accentuated those losses further.
adrock1976
Established Member
Regarding a lounge for the sleeper passengers at Glasgow Central, the former Caledonian Railway Central Hotel could be used. Furthermore, I believe the hotel on the station forecourt at Carlisle is also used for sleeper passengers 9or was at one time - unsure if this is still the case).
The only 2 things that I know what this abbreviation means is either:
Statutory Sick Pay, which is administered by the Department for Work and Pensions, and
Scottish Socialist Party, who had 7 MSPs elected to the Scottish Parliament in 2003 and was led by Pollok's famous loudmouth, suntanned, table banging, egotistic Tommy Sheridan. He subsequently upset a lot of people when he became hell bent on bringing down a Murdoch rag, when headlines appeared about his private life which were all true (not that I support the Murdoch rags style of journalism).
The only 2 things that I know what this abbreviation means is either:
Statutory Sick Pay, which is administered by the Department for Work and Pensions, and
Scottish Socialist Party, who had 7 MSPs elected to the Scottish Parliament in 2003 and was led by Pollok's famous loudmouth, suntanned, table banging, egotistic Tommy Sheridan. He subsequently upset a lot of people when he became hell bent on bringing down a Murdoch rag, when headlines appeared about his private life which were all true (not that I support the Murdoch rags style of journalism).
Iskra
Established Member
SSP are a company that specialise in running franchise businesses on railways. E.g: BK, Starbucks, M&S.
MrEd
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I can, to be honest, because I’m not sure that either Serco or the Scottish Government will be able to stomach the losses for much longer, nor do I think that the current business model is at all viable; hopefully the politicians can see that as much as we who use the sleeper can. Equally, the Scottish Government (if they had any sense) would want to ensure the service’s continued viability because of the social function that it fulfils (particularly for the Highlands). Part of ensuring the service’s viability would, for me, mean being able to minimise losses (as much as you can with the sleeper) while avoiding the punitive fare increases that we’ve seen under Serco. I’m not an expert on this, but didn’t someone say that Serco/the Scottish Government could terminate the contract early if things didn’t work out?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It stands for "Select Service Partner" though they don't use that name these days (a bit like BT don't use "British Telecommunications" any more).
47271
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Scotrail can barely run their own trains at the moment, what makes anyone think that the sleepers would be in better hands run as an misfit offshoot from a daytime train large operator? This, as I recall, was the reason for separating the two franchises - to bring a proper focus on the unique nature of the sleeper business rather than it being regarded as a damn nuisance that distracts from the main operation. Scotrail did not make a good job of the sleeper, and I speak from experience.
CS are having a lot of trouble introducing their new trains at the moment. These difficulties may well melt away in a few months time, or they may persist, in which case they really do have a problem. I think that they'll probably get through it, very rarely does a new train type have a smooth introduction and these are very, very complicated trains.
Equally their pricing and business model could fail leading to unsustainable losses as others have posted above. I think that this is much more likely to happen, particularly if there's a check in the current massive upswing in Scottish tourism.
But at the moment there's nothing more to this than speculation, and we really don't want Scotrail getting involved any time soon.
CS are having a lot of trouble introducing their new trains at the moment. These difficulties may well melt away in a few months time, or they may persist, in which case they really do have a problem. I think that they'll probably get through it, very rarely does a new train type have a smooth introduction and these are very, very complicated trains.
Equally their pricing and business model could fail leading to unsustainable losses as others have posted above. I think that this is much more likely to happen, particularly if there's a check in the current massive upswing in Scottish tourism.
But at the moment there's nothing more to this than speculation, and we really don't want Scotrail getting involved any time soon.
It's not an abbreviation (any more), it's a catering service provider as explained immediately after it is mentioned. If you care to Google SSP catering there are a number of results.
I appreciate you may think you're doing the world a service by immediately and jumping upon all unexplained abbreviations on the forum but doing so and wandering off on a random tangent about other uses of the actual abbreviation SSP when it does not apply is rather impolite.
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The Scottish government have big dream about the sleeper bringing in more Tourist spend overall so the outside rail tourist spend will be part of any assessment.
Many businesses make the fatal mistake of chasing newer high profit customers at the expense their existing regular customers. There is also a substantial cost to attracting new customers.
The 2017 average cost per passenger of operating was £216 of which £140 was subsidy from TS or DfT NR Direct Grant. The solution to the subsidy issue appears to be to increase prices significantly (and hope it doesn't put people off) and at the same time as increasing operating costs.
adrock1976
Established Member
It was not my intention if it was perceived as jumping on in my previous post, bearing in mind I have never seen or heard of SSP Catering before.
Although not explained further in the previous post, the reason I mentioned the political party was in case Serco may have had a crazy idea in hosting political speeches in the lounge car - a similar crazy idea as how they were going to have bagpipe bands playing in the lounge car (this may have been mentioned in the previous sleeper thread that got locked, which this one is a continuation of).
Scotrail84
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diffident
Member
I'm sure Serco will have created a liability shield for themselves, so in the worst case, if they wanted out, they'd just bang the asset into administration, forcing the DfT to take over.
Mainliner
Member
The absence of any evidence to the contrary (e.g. implementing quick-win solutions to some of the current problems, as mentioned up-thread) gives me the impression of a company that is already disillusioned with the whole thing (maybe partly due to very late delivery of a product which sounds from reports to be not fit for purpose) and maybe already looking for a way out, or at least more assistance in dealing with the problems.
47271
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This is the true contractual position, as clarified in @TimboM's post 771 on this thread on 15 April:
On a further point of accuracy, the contract is Transport Scotland's and not the DfT's. Things might be bad, but at least the DfT isn't involved...
gingerheid
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I get shouted down when I try to say this, but the accounts really weren't as bad as people think they were, and wouldn't lead in themselves to a strong suggestion that Serco would want to give up. It wasn't that they lost that amount of money in the period of those accounts, the horrible number arose from an adjustment in respect of future years.
Something similar applies to the level of the service. It has problems that it would be better if it didn't have (Some of which such as lounge access they are to be criticised for not fixing; I bet the Travelodge at Euston would be happy to let people into their breakfast room for self-service coffees in the middle of the night for a modest payment). But it's still not that bad at worst and really better overall. I was a regular on the old one and I liked it. The new one is, despite some shortcomings both temporary and long term, better (even if not quite able to live up to the marketing).
My main gripe about the new service is not being able to make bookings as easily as before...
Something similar applies to the level of the service. It has problems that it would be better if it didn't have (Some of which such as lounge access they are to be criticised for not fixing; I bet the Travelodge at Euston would be happy to let people into their breakfast room for self-service coffees in the middle of the night for a modest payment). But it's still not that bad at worst and really better overall. I was a regular on the old one and I liked it. The new one is, despite some shortcomings both temporary and long term, better (even if not quite able to live up to the marketing).
My main gripe about the new service is not being able to make bookings as easily as before...
Another poor review, this time from Glasgow Live: https://www.glasgowlive.co.uk/news/glasgow-news/watch-try-out-new-caledonian-16363880
I imagine some of the complaints can be fixed easily enough (faulty aircon, bathroom door not closing) but being unable to sleep because of the noise of the train is very worrying for CS with so much hype about it being a hotel on wheels.
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Butts
Veteran Member
That review wasn't that bad, she did go on about how small it was several times (the cabin), as a small female lord knows how a 6'3" male would fare.
It was quite a useless account not going into detail or even showing her arrival in London to say how the journey was.
PaxVobiscum
Established Member
My first thoughts were: a poor review indeed - while one may forgive the occasional solecism and spelling mistake, I was quite surprised at how many errors this report contained. It is difficult to give much credence to a piece of journalism when the presentation is so unprofessional.
EDIT: On reflection, perhaps that’s a bit harsh. I felt more sympathetic to her when I watched the video (even though much of it is inappropriately shot vertically).
Maybe I need to take my medicine
.
EDIT: On reflection, perhaps that’s a bit harsh. I felt more sympathetic to her when I watched the video (even though much of it is inappropriately shot vertically).
Maybe I need to take my medicine
.
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Steve Harris
Member
That's modern day journalsim for you !!
WesternLancer
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room well kitted out with soft lighting and luxury freebies, but I faced a sleepless night battling with a broken air con, a door that refused to close and a bathroom light that shone all night long. In a huff I fashioned a hammock-come-lock with my bra in a bid to close the door, block the light and finally get some shut eye. A personal triumph, but not a massive help in the end.
At least she traveled with the tools to carry out some running repairs!
Iskra
Established Member
room well kitted out with soft lighting and luxury freebies, but I faced a sleepless night battling with a broken air con, a door that refused to close and a bathroom light that shone all night long. In a huff I fashioned a hammock-come-lock with my bra in a bid to close the door, block the light and finally get some shut eye. A personal triumph, but not a massive help in the end.
At least she traveled with the tools to carry out some running repairs!
CS are probably ordering hundreds of bras as we speak!
MrEd
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I only have experience of the last three years (2013-2015) of the operation when it was run by First Group as part of the Scotrail franchise, but (from what I remember) I don't seem to recall things were that bad. I first became a regular user of the sleeper in this period and I must say that my experiences were very positive. Perhaps I was just lucky. Whilst First Group did very little to market the service (meaning that their much praised 'Bargain Berths' were not as widely known about as they should have been) and there was a strong sense that their management did not care very much about it (comparatively little was done in the way of refurbishment of the existing stock, for instance), the on-train staff were always excellent and the travelling experience was great. I was very impressed with the service's punctuality, the lounge car food was very nice (if basic) and the fares were very affordable (particularly in standard). The whole experience was fantastic- having haggis for dinner leaving London and waking up to the amazing Highland scenery- and did not need fancy gimmicks to make it the fantastic journey that it was (and always will be). Loadings could be variable (certainly Monday and Wednesday nights on the northbound Highlander in November, January and February could be very quiet, but Friday nights were very busy all year round, with lots of very interesting regular travellers) but one thing I never remember much was customers complaining (as is unfortunately all too common a feature of the current operation, though some of the criticisms are perhaps unfair). Plenty of foreign tourists used to travel to Inverness and Fort William on the Scotrail sleeper throughout the year and genuinely seemed to enjoy the experience, despite the fairly basic facilities offered by the Mk2s and Mk3s. First Group's marketing was such that (I suspect) many passengers' expectations were not huge, with the result that most travellers ended up being pleasantly surprised by the experience. The Mk2s and Mk3s were showing their age, and the reliability of the Mk2s was decidedly hit-and-miss even then. But overall it seemed a very good, user-friendly service which delivered what it advertised. I would not say that they ran it any better than Serco did; in fact, as the Mk2s and Mk3s are still running, not much has materially changed on the Highlander since Serco took over, and it remains my favourite journey (and always will do, though I will have to save a lot more money to travel on it from now on). I think that one positive which Serco could take from First Scotrail was the fact that they did not give their prospective travellers sky-high expectations which they knew that they could not deliver.
PaxVobiscum
Established Member
I second the above.
WesternLancer
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Good and fair analysis I think.
I recall bumping into a chap employed by First when they took over the franchise (so I guess c2005) as a consultant and he was working for them on ideas to improve the sleeper - presumably over the 1st franchisee Nat Express, given that new stock etc was not going to be part of the plan. I think they did a full refresh+ (refurb?) of the interiors - new carpets, cabin decor, bedding etc - but obv not beyond that as has happened to Night Riviera more recently, after that and also I think did stuff to offer better food and drink menu in the bar cars. Some of this has since gone with serco - unless seasonal - eg used to have extra blanket in cabin if needed (I suppose no need now the air con in my Mk3 did not go to cold!) and also toiletary pack with toothbrush, toothpaste etc that I note CS no longer provides (edit - only provides in 1st class as a matter of course) - v small matters of course. It did seem like 1st delivered some definite improvements when they started but perhaps like all other franchisees as time goes on do not fully keep up the standards that they started with?
I don't recall them not being marketed in the early days of First - tho it may be that the marketing was only limited to posters around scottish stations run by First, which I guess would not grow the market much - so not the wider marketing plan CS have embarked on in the media, or perhaps not marketed so much by First in England.
gazthomas
Established Member
Select Service Partner
Yes Caledonian Sleeper is extremely poor these days.
When I tried to make a reservation with them last year, it was difficult to get them to do what I wanted them to do and they kept trying to fob me off with information I knew to be inaccurate.
On the train, the staff member was unhelpful, split our group up, and at best the way they interacted with "guests" (!) could be described as 'curt'. We were told off for boarding the train; apparently we should have waited on the platform for someone to escort us, rather than take our seats. Bizarre.
Their prices are insane; I'm now much less likely to take a leisure trip to places like Fort William and am now much more likely to go to mainland Europe.
They are an incredibly inefficient operator, whose costs must surely be inflated compared to the days of Scotrail operation.
Their claims about the quality of their service are about as far detached from the reality as you could possibly imagine!
When things go wrong, the compensation they offer to passengers is woefully inadequate and derisory.
I can't see them lasting much longer.
When I tried to make a reservation with them last year, it was difficult to get them to do what I wanted them to do and they kept trying to fob me off with information I knew to be inaccurate.
On the train, the staff member was unhelpful, split our group up, and at best the way they interacted with "guests" (!) could be described as 'curt'. We were told off for boarding the train; apparently we should have waited on the platform for someone to escort us, rather than take our seats. Bizarre.
Their prices are insane; I'm now much less likely to take a leisure trip to places like Fort William and am now much more likely to go to mainland Europe.
They are an incredibly inefficient operator, whose costs must surely be inflated compared to the days of Scotrail operation.
Their claims about the quality of their service are about as far detached from the reality as you could possibly imagine!
When things go wrong, the compensation they offer to passengers is woefully inadequate and derisory.
I can't see them lasting much longer.
ForTheLoveOf
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I recently travelled with Caledonian Sleeper on two journeys as part of a group and had a rather middling experience, with a number of problems including food being completely unavailable on one journey and limited on another, a broken down carriage and an unadvertised change of London Terminus that CS had known about when I bought the tickets, resulting in a lack of amenities.
CS first tried to fob me off with a ludicrously small sum of compensation less than that even promised in their charter as a minimum (it being the only charter I'm aware of that guarantees specific amounts for specific faults). They later agreed a slightly less stingy sum, though still showing a mindset of "well we got you there didn't we, what more do you expect?", which is totally at odds with the kind of hotel-like, luxury 'vibe' that CS are trying to create. To be honest, if they are really looking to create repeat custom then they ought to be offering free tickets for that kind of incident. Fortunately for them I'm going to be a repeat customer come what may, due to the lack of rail-on-rail competition for Scottish sleepers!
I think that CS really shouldn't have attempted to start ramping up the PR before they could actually deliver the amazing experience they were promising. Of course, to me it's no surprise that they are still delivering poor experiences just like every other TOC does from time to time, but I have little sympathy for their plight.
I find it very disappointing that it appears that the TOC, as always, can simply walk away from these kinds of contracts if they don't get the results they want and are losing too much money. It's never the other way round, where the franchising authority gets to say "you're making too much profit, we're going to have to renegotiate this". But that's another topic entirely. The one thing that's certain is that the old trains are going; the pricing structure, branding and PR might all change in a flash.
CS first tried to fob me off with a ludicrously small sum of compensation less than that even promised in their charter as a minimum (it being the only charter I'm aware of that guarantees specific amounts for specific faults). They later agreed a slightly less stingy sum, though still showing a mindset of "well we got you there didn't we, what more do you expect?", which is totally at odds with the kind of hotel-like, luxury 'vibe' that CS are trying to create. To be honest, if they are really looking to create repeat custom then they ought to be offering free tickets for that kind of incident. Fortunately for them I'm going to be a repeat customer come what may, due to the lack of rail-on-rail competition for Scottish sleepers
!I think that CS really shouldn't have attempted to start ramping up the PR before they could actually deliver the amazing experience they were promising. Of course, to me it's no surprise that they are still delivering poor experiences just like every other TOC does from time to time, but I have little sympathy for their plight.
I find it very disappointing that it appears that the TOC, as always, can simply walk away from these kinds of contracts if they don't get the results they want and are losing too much money. It's never the other way round, where the franchising authority gets to say "you're making too much profit, we're going to have to renegotiate this". But that's another topic entirely. The one thing that's certain is that the old trains are going; the pricing structure, branding and PR might all change in a flash.
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