TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

sjpowermac · 7 Jun 2019

SP Man said:
Unfortunately new trains are software driven and a very minor change to one thing alerts others that can then cause other issues. For example the system was looking for the brake to release in a certain timescale, when an alteration was made the setting was out by milliseconds which would cause a fault to be shown. This was worked through and sorted.

That’s a really interesting insight into how things work. I’d guess too that there’s often not a quick fix.

Am I right in saying that the time at Velim was cut short due to the volume of other work at the test track? In your experience is it easier to iron out problems on a test track rather than the ‘live’ railway up and down the WCML?

From what you’ve said, it seems that the current crop of trains are a whole new ball game compared with what has gone before.

RailUK Forums

LittleAH · 7 Jun 2019

Ben Bow said:
I don't think most people expect a day-by-day timetable for the introduction of the new fleets. But specific dates have been mentioned, for example two Nova 3 sets in service from 29 July. The problem that I think many people see, both inside, and out, of TPE, is that the company is very quick to tell about the positive things (fair enough, why shouldn't they) but clam up when things aren't going so well. This leads to information leaking out, sometimes distorted through the "Chinese Whispers" process, and people become frustrated at yet more delay with no information from TPE themselves, just as you would be if your train was delayed during its journey. A simple update I'm sure would go down well, there's no need to go into minute detail, something like:

"unfortunately, further issues have cropped up with "xxx". At this moment in time our technicians are working with CAF to find a solution, until then we can not give a firm date for the new fleet to enter service, however we can say that we will not make the 29 July target previously advised, and apologise for this. We will provide a further update once we have progressed with a solution, and the situation becomes clearer"

Given the length of the delay, we are now into years, rather than weeks or months, the frustration felt by customers, and staff, is understandable.

Where have TPE publicly put out the date of 29 July?

SP Man · 7 Jun 2019

sjpowermac said:
That’s a really interesting insight into how things work. I’d guess too that there’s often not a quick fix.

Am I right in saying that the time at Velim was cut short due to the volume of other work at the test track? In your experience is it easier to iron out problems on a test track rather than the ‘live’ railway up and down the WCML?

From what you’ve said, it seems that the current crop of trains are a whole new ball game compared with what has gone before.

The test trCk phase is vital to prove certain things before going live on Network Rail. Things like how electrical frequencies etc may affect cables can be down there and a quick test in the UK to ensure that the test results match. It also allows Drivers to gain some experience on non NR Track but the train is normally non in a complete state and will have things isolated and testing software on it. Both phases are important and new things will be learned. I remember as a 18 year old at Wigan Springs Branch when the drivers were training the new class 60s. They had quite a few faults. I remember the fitters having to take the new cards out to warm them up and then swing on the fuel racks to start them. Training trips were list but the big difference was was that no one knew. There was no Facebook, forums etc with the types they should have run and everyone saying what's wrong. We now live in an age where people knew on the internet of an issue (orcalleged isdue) before the operator does. Some tests runs are cancelled because that test is not needed but a static software test is done instead. Personally the issues that's being raised on the mk5a and are being sorted by CAF will create a far better train (albeit late). It will (as) also helped CAF look at the new stock that's being delivered to the UK and amend accordingly. The UK is vastly different to most other countries and is very old fashioned in lots of ways. The MK5a stock abroad fir new trains and locos would all be electric brakes and not an old fashioned (but I like it) system. It doesn't help that the power unit (68) is controlled by another companies software and to ensure both talk to each other (after numerous updates on each side). Not the best but who else makes an UK compliant fast locomotive at the moment. It is easy for me to say because I dobt travel on the TPE services in rush hour but again Personally it is better to get it right before starting operation( and lost the current trsins) than being them in and have to try and sort out whilst in service with no spare trains.

tpjm · 7 Jun 2019

TBSchenker said:
You also have the question the competence of Freightliner and ROG who were contracted to do the commissioning, what experience have they had regarding testing brand new to the UK stock?

I’d echo the sentiments of @SP Man

Both FLHH and ROG are more than capable, which I have witnessed first hand. I’d love to hear why you feel it necessary to “question their competence”

LittleAH said:
Where have TPE publicly put out the date of 29 July?

I think reference here is being made to the unit diagrams which commence on 29th July showing units coming off Longsight vice Ardwick.

To clarify, this doesn’t mean it is the day they will start, and merely reflects an interim timetable change date.

D6700 · 7 Jun 2019

sjpowermac said:
Am I right in saying that the time at Velim was cut short due to the volume of other work at the test track? Is it easier to iron out problems on a test track rather than the ‘live’ railway up and down the WCML?

Certainly Velim is a very busy test centre, which often sees both the inner and outer test circuits in use simultaneously. There are also special static testing facilities in various buildings.

To give an idea of the competition for testing time, between May and November last year, I personally saw:

Alstom ETR 104 EMU (Italy)
Alstom Z56600 EMU (France)
Bombardier 147 locomotives with IC2 stock (Germany)
Bombardier Traxx Multi-System locomotives (international)
CAF 195 DMU (UK)
CAF 331 EMU (UK)
CAF 397 EMU (UK)
CAF ATR 465 DMU (Italy)
CAF ETR 564 EMU (Italy)
CAF Type 78 EMU (Norway)
Hitachi Rock EMU (Italy)
Siemens Vectron locomotives (international)
Skoda 102 locomotives and "NIM" coaching stock (Germany)
Skoda 380 locomotives (Czech Republic)
Skoda 650 EMU (Czech Republic)
Stadler Class 745 EMU (UK)
Stadler Class 755 BMU (UK)
Stadler Sleeper Stock (Azerbaijan)
Vossloh 68's with CAF Mk5A's (UK)
Various other wagons and coaches from several countries

Last Saturday, when I passed by on the train (the test centre complex is briefly visible from the main line), I am pretty sure I noticed the graffiti inflicted TPE 397002 still there.

sjpowermac · 7 Jun 2019

SP Man said:
The test trCk phase is vital to prove certain things before going live on Network Rail. Things like how electrical frequencies etc may affect cables can be down there and a quick test in the UK to ensure that the test results match. It also allows Drivers to gain some experience on non NR Track but the train is normally non in a complete state and will have things isolated and testing software on it. Both phases are important and new things will be learned. I remember as a 18 year old at Wigan Springs Branch when the drivers were training the new class 60s. They had quite a few faults. I remember the fitters having to take the new cards out to warm them up and then swing on the fuel racks to start them. Training trips were list but the big difference was was that no one knew. There was no Facebook, forums etc with the types they should have run and everyone saying what's wrong. We now live in an age where people knew on the internet of an issue (orcalleged isdue) before the operator does. Some tests runs are cancelled because that test is not needed but a static software test is done instead. Personally the issues that's being raised on the mk5a and are being sorted by CAF will create a far better train (albeit late). It will (as) also helped CAF look at the new stock that's being delivered to the UK and amend accordingly. The UK is vastly different to most other countries and is very old fashioned in lots of ways. The MK5a stock abroad fir new trains and locos would all be electric brakes and not an old fashioned (but I like it) system. It doesn't help that the power unit (68) is controlled by another companies software and to ensure both talk to each other (after numerous updates on each side). Not the best but who else makes an UK compliant fast locomotive at the moment. It is easy for me to say because I dobt travel on the TPE services in rush hour but again Personally it is better to get it right before starting operation( and lost the current trsins) than being them in and have to try and sort out whilst in service with no spare trains.

Thank you very much indeed for sharing, that all makes very interesting reading. I reckon there’s a book to be written there with your experience on all the different stock over the years.

Thank you too for your experience on the importance of the test track running.

I agree with you entirely about the modern trains being under the spotlight in a way that, say the Class 60s, were not. The Nova 3 suffers all round from this with enthusiasts watching every move and obviously I’ll admit to that one myself!

I can also appreciate your point about the static tests, all too easy enthusiasts (again I’ll count myself!) to see ‘no MID-Carlisle this week’ and assume nothing is happening, when in fact the tests didn’t require the train to be in motion.

I hadn’t really thought about the brake, growing up in the Deltic era that was how things were, but I can see it’s a curious mix with a train full of software!

Absolutely things have to be spot on before the trains are put into traffic. It’s all too easy to hear the cries of ‘why on Earth were they not tested properly’ had the sets been rushed through and one sat down in the rush hour at Manchester!

On a personal note, thank you for the times you posted about the test workings to Scarborough, it was fantastic to see those

Best wishes for the remaining testing, fingers crossed it doesn’t keep you too busy

sjpowermac · 7 Jun 2019

D6700 said:
Certainly Velim is a very busy test centre, which often sees both the inner and outer test circuits in use simultaneously. There are also special static testing facilities in various buildings.

To give an idea of the competition for testing time, between May and November last year, I personally saw:

Alstom ETR 104 EMU (Italy)
Alstom Z56600 EMU (France)
Bombardier 147 locomotives with IC2 stock (Germany)
Bombardier Traxx Multi-System locomotives (international)
CAF 195 DMU (UK)
CAF 331 EMU (UK)
CAF 397 EMU (UK)
CAF ATR 465 DMU (Italy)
CAF ETR 564 EMU (Italy)
CAF Type 78 EMU (Norway)
Hitachi Rock EMU (Italy)
Siemens Vectron locomotives (international)
Skoda 102 locomotives and "NIM" coaching stock (Germany)
Skoda 380 locomotives (Czech Republic)
Skoda 650 EMU (Czech Republic)
Stadler Class 745 EMU (UK)
Stadler Class 755 BMU (UK)
Stadler Sleeper Stock (Azerbaijan)
Vossloh 68's with CAF Mk5A's (UK)
Various other wagons and coaches from several countries

Last Saturday, when I passed by on the train (the test centre complex is briefly visible from the main line), I am pretty sure I noticed the graffiti inflicted TPE 397002 still there.

Thank you for that, I knew the test centre had been busy but didn’t realise it was quite that busy!

transmanche · 7 Jun 2019

BeHereNow said:
I'd love to have your optimism and positivity, TransManche. Perhaps you should work for TransPennine?

I'm guessing that's an attempt at a dig?

Who said I'm optimistic? I want to see the new stock in service asap and the various delays are quite frustrating. What I won't do, however, is to attribute to TPE things it doesn't seem to have said.

yorkie · 8 Jun 2019

There has been a report of some posts being off-topic however, while this report was only submitted this morning, it relates to posts that are now around a week old.

Therefore I'll just issue a reminder that if anyone wishes to discuss any spin-off topics, please create a new thread in the correct section of the forum. Feel free to post a link here if appropriate/relevant.

If anyone has any concerns regarding any post, please do report it. If several posts are off topic, please just report the first one and let us know the details in your report.

Many thanks

Greybeard33 · 8 Jun 2019

keith1879 said:
Not replying to any specific posting here ....I just want to point out what TransPennine themselves have actually said in their press releases regarding the "Nova 3" (Class 68 plus Mk 5A coaches).
20 May 2016. (referring to both CAF fleets) To be delivered in 2018 and 2019 and to be in service "by 2019".
27 October 2016 First to be delivered in 2018. From 2019 will run to Middlesbrough.
13 March 2017 Will begin to see them running from 2018
4 December 2017 "From 2018" (not sure if this was in service but that is certainly the implication).
18 April 2018 In service towards the end of 2018.
12 November 2018. Nova 3 fleet service entry delayed until spring 2019.

keith1879 said:
We still don't know when the first Nova 3 service will run ..... but the earliest starting time ever promised was "late 2018". As things stand it looks as though that time will be missed by maybe 9 months (perhaps as much as 12 - depending on your definition of late 2018). Full service for all the fleets has never been promised earlier than some time during 2020 (with Nova 3 fully in service during 2019).

Solent&Wessex said:
Current rumours from some people involved is that Instructor Driver training on the Mk5As will not now commence until 9th July, due to software issues.

A revised date of September is being banded around as being the expected introduction date to allow for instructors and then sufficient drivers to be trained.

Assuming no further problems of course.

On 23 May 2016, three days after TPE announced the CAF order, Railway Gazette published a story that gave more detail on the planned date of introduction than TPE's own press release:

The 13 sets of five-car hauled coaches will be financed by Beacon Rail Leasing, and will work in push-pull mode with Class 68 diesel locomotives owned by Beacon Rail which will be subleased from Direct Rail Services. TPE said ‘most of the required Class 68 engines are already built and by buying state-of-the-art carriages to be pulled by these engines, much-needed additional capacity can be introduced quickly’.

The coaches will initially operate at up to 160 km/h, with the capability to run at 200 km/h as routes are electrified. They will enter service from spring 2018, initially operating between Liverpool and Newcastle. Later in 2018 some will begin running to and from Scarborough. Once TPE's Hitachi AT300 fleet arrives in December 2019, the coaches will then be transferred to routes from Liverpool and Manchester Airport to Middlesbrough and Scarborough.

https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ine-express-orders-emus-and-hauled-stock.html (my bolding)

It looks as though this information came from an official source within TPE.

Depending on which definition of the seasons you choose (solar, meteorological or astronomical), the end of spring 2018 was 1st May, 1st June or 21st June. But even using the latest, entry into service should have been no more than 2 years and 1 month from the order date. If it now happens in September 2019, that will be more than 3 years and 3 months from the order!

Edit: arithmetic corrected!

class 9 · 8 Jun 2019

tpjm said:
I’d echo the sentiments of @SP Man

Both FLHH and ROG are more than capable, which I have witnessed first hand. I’d love to hear why you feel it necessary to “question their competence”

I think reference here is being made to the unit diagrams which commence on 29th July showing units coming off Longsight vice Ardwick.

To clarify, this doesn’t mean it is the day they will start, and merely reflects an interim timetable change date.

Mr TBschencker, you questioning the capability of HH & ROG operating the test trains is missing the point. Those companies are contracted to provide Drivers, they work under the instructions of technicians on board, they are conducting the testing.

BeHereNow · 8 Jun 2019

So the original press stories from franchise award in December 2015 seem to state 2017 as the entry date, consistent with the need for extra rolling stock to run the December 2017 timetable.

By the time the rolling stock contract is announced in May 2016, that date has moved to Spring 2018.

yorkie · 8 Jun 2019

yorkie said:
....Therefore I'll just issue a reminder that if anyone wishes to discuss any spin-off topics, please create a new thread in the correct section of the forum. Feel free to post a link here if appropriate/relevant....

It is far easier if people can do this themselves please.

I have split some posts into a new thread: European Technical Specifications for Interoperability for new rolling stock.

Please can any other topics be posted directly into a new thread, thanks. If they are related to this issue, you are welcome to link to the thread here.

Peter Mugridge · 8 Jun 2019

There are today, 8th June, two Mk5 sets back to back without a 68 attached to either at the south end of Basford Hall yard.

D6700 · 8 Jun 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
There are today, 8th June, two Mk5 sets back to back without a 68 attached to either at the south end of Basford Hall yard.

I suspect these will be the sets referred to here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...g-stock-progress.143579/page-113#post-4035161

SP Man · 8 Jun 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
There are today, 8th June, two Mk5 sets back to back without a 68 attached to either at the south end of Basford Hall yard.

Shouldn't be a 68 on either end, that should the DTs.

Peter Mugridge · 8 Jun 2019

SP Man said:
Shouldn't be a 68 on either end, that should the DTs.

Meaning... there is no 68 at all; the two sets are back to back like a single 10 car rake.

D6700 said:
I suspect these will be the sets referred to here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...g-stock-progress.143579/page-113#post-4035161

I see that post is dated last week so yes, I think that could well be them. Do we know which set is which? As in - which one is at which end of the formation?

sjpowermac · 9 Jun 2019

York report:
On Saturday 68032 worked 0M68 York PSD to Longsight. Both 68024 and 68028 worked driver training/refresher trips on the York-Scarborough line.

On Sunday 68024 worked four return York to Scarborough trips.

Pic below of 68024 at York. Perhaps TPE are looking at lower tech solutions to their need for more capacity

The_Train · 9 Jun 2019

sjpowermac said:
York report:
On Saturday 68032 worked 0M68 York PSD to Longsight. Both 68024 and 68028 worked driver training/refresher trips on the York-Scarborough line.

On Sunday 68024 worked four return York to Scarborough trips.

Pic below of 68024 at York. Perhaps TPE are looking at lower tech solutions to their need for more capacity
View attachment 64268

Loco hauled pacers is definitely the way to go. We wouldn't even need HS2 with these sort of advancements

Thanks for the updates. Each day can only bring us closer to that first LHCS passenger run

sjpowermac · 10 Jun 2019

As I understand it the arrangements for servicing of Mk5a will be Longsight, York Siemens and then two rakes overnight at Scarborough.

Does anyone know if the alterations to York depot are completed? It certainly looked finished when I passed on the train.

Does anyone know if Scarborough is ready/when it will open? I wondered also about the depot code for Scarborough (the two letter one as in ‘YK’ for York).

Many thanks in advance

87electric · 10 Jun 2019

Peter Mugridge said:
There are today, 8th June, two Mk5 sets back to back without a 68 attached to either at the south end of Basford Hall yard.

TP02 and TP05 quoted elsewhere on the web.

Jonny · 10 Jun 2019

sjpowermac said:
As I understand it the arrangements for servicing of Mk5a will be Longsight, York Siemens and then two rakes overnight at Scarborough.

Does anyone know if the alterations to York depot are completed? It certainly looked finished when I passed on the train.

Does anyone know if Scarborough is ready/when it will open? I wondered also about the depot code for Scarborough (the two letter one as in ‘YK’ for York).

Many thanks in advance

So, will that be instead of the 185s?

Peter Mugridge · 10 Jun 2019

87electric said:
TP02 and TP05 quoted elsewhere on the web.

Thank you; do we know which is which though?

sjpowermac · 10 Jun 2019

Jonny said:
So, will that be instead of the 185s?

Yes. As I understand it the depot will reduce empty stock workings and enable earlier trains from Scarborough, worked by Class 68s and Mk5a stock.

There is a thread here about the depot:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/train-stabling-sidings-for-scarborough.157881/

But I posted here since my question is about both York and Scarborough and if the depots are ready

LittleAH · 10 Jun 2019

tpjm said:
I’d echo the sentiments of @SP Man

Both FLHH and ROG are more than capable, which I have witnessed first hand. I’d love to hear why you feel it necessary to “question their competence”

I think reference here is being made to the unit diagrams which commence on 29th July showing units coming off Longsight vice Ardwick.

To clarify, this doesn’t mean it is the day they will start, and merely reflects an interim timetable change date.

Ah, so there has been no confirmation and it's just assumptions by folk on here...

BMIFlyer · 10 Jun 2019

sjpowermac said:
I wondered also about the depot code for Scarborough (the two letter one as in ‘YK’ for York).

Many thanks in advance

If it's anything like the train crew diagrams, it should be "YS". I shall ask one of my HQ colleagues for an answer.

sjpowermac · 10 Jun 2019

BMIFlyer said:
If it's anything like the train crew diagrams, it should be "YS". I shall ask one of my HQ colleagues for an answer.

Many thanks indeed for that, greatly appreciated

D6700 · 10 Jun 2019

sjpowermac said:
Does anyone know if Scarborough is ready/when it will open?

I visited Scarborough by train on 23 May and looked across at the depot as I passed. I was quite surprised how unfinished it was. What I assume to be a servicing platform and a possible fuelling facility were merely skeletal structures, with no fitting out apparent. There was still track to be put down - some obvious, as there were sleepers, but no rails.

Being a brand new facility, no "possessions" are required to do much of this work, so it is possible things have moved forward rapidly in the last couple of weeks.

sjpowermac · 10 Jun 2019

D6700 said:
I visited Scarborough by train on 23 May and looked across at the depot as I passed. I was quite surprised how unfinished it was. What I assume to be a servicing platform and a possible fuelling facility were merely skeletal structures, with no fitting out apparent. There was still track to be put down - some obvious, as there were sleepers, but no rails.

Being a brand new facility, no "possessions" are required to do much of this work, so it is possible things have moved forward rapidly in the last couple of weeks.

Thank you for that, greatly appreciated. I visited back in February and things didn’t look overly advanced at that stage. As you mentioned though, things can change quickly.

I guess the initial Nova 3 turns are likely to be out and back from Longsight anyhow, as with the York to Scarborough Summer Saturday ‘possibilities’.

Ben Bow · 11 Jun 2019

sjpowermac said:
....Does anyone know if the alterations to York depot are completed? It certainly looked finished when I passed on the train.

Does anyone know if Scarborough is ready/when it will open? I wondered also about the depot code for Scarborough (the two letter one as in ‘YK’ for York).

Many thanks in advance

The physical infrastructure work at York depot is complete and the stop boards have been removed. Whether the associated paperwork to allow full use of the new facilities has been completed is another matter. To summarise the changes, in addition to the fuel roads (1 & 2) being made longer with additional fuel/C.E.T. points for the longer trains, the two roads are now operated differently. There was access to the stabling sidings from both fuel roads previously, however those sidings can now only be accessed from no.2 road (furthest from the 'main line'), no.1 road (next to the main line) is 'in and out' - there is no access to the sidings. Exactly how things will pan out when the new trains start using it, I am not aware yet.

Scarborough depot is a "work in progress" I think is the best way of putting it.

TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Forum Staff

Established Member

Member

Guest

Forum Staff

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member