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New trains for East Midlands Franchise

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edwin_m

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Not really, they have very firm suspension which isn't suitable for intercity stock
Is the firm suspension intrinsic to it being an inside-frame bogie, or it just so happens that 220s and 222s have both? I have to say I wouldn't include poor ride in the long list of shortcomings of the 220 and the rather less long list for the 222.
 
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cactustwirly

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Is the firm suspension intrinsic to it being an inside-frame bogie, or it just so happens that 220s and 222s have both? I have to say I wouldn't include poor ride in the long list of shortcomings of the 220 and the rather less long list for the 222.

The 22xs are definitely a lot more firmer than the silky smooth Mk3s
 

InTheEastMids

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The 22xs are definitely a lot more firmer than the silky smooth Mk3s

Completely disagree. As a regular MML user of both types, I think the 222 gives a much better-controlled ride. The HST feels really under-damped to me.

My point being that ride comfort is highly subjective
 

hwl

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Is the firm suspension intrinsic to it being an inside-frame bogie, or it just so happens that 220s and 222s have both? I have to say I wouldn't include poor ride in the long list of shortcomings of the 220 and the rather less long list for the 222.
It isn't intrinsic to inside frame designs
 

w1bbl3

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A few thoughts on detail of Bombardier and Hitachi options.
So before worrying about diesel power Bombardier are ~ 30-35 tonnes lighter and £1.4m cheaper.
The MTU rafts are ~£700K each including 27.5years maintenance so being lighter initially reduces the diesel power requirement.

What the major driver of the relative lardiness of the Hitachi units and is this core the unit design or something that could be tackled by development of a further variant?
 

hwl

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What the major driver of the relative lardiness of the Hitachi units and is this core the unit design or something that could be tackled by development of a further variant?
3 big drivers.
1. Lack of inside framed bogies (@1.6-1.8tonnes/ bogie). Bombardier have big IP advantage here along with the traction motor and cooling designs and brakes to fit inside framed bogies.
2. Bodyshells lighter
3. Electronics lighter (and EMC compliant)

Some pretty big changes...

Being the first product launched doesn't always work for the long term.
 

clagmonster

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Quoted here to avoid diverting the Scotrail / Southern 170 thread.
The rumour, and it is only such, is that 4/5 x 170s and 9 x Anglia 156s arrive before too long. 170s displace 158s from quieter Liverpool diagrams to displace 153s to allow withdrawal by the end of the year.
Anglia 156s to EMR I have wondered about for a while, they are already PRM modified so would make a good stopgap at the very least. Personally I think they would be good on the rural services long term, but they don't meet the air con requirement. There are strong rumours of 156s going on the Bartons which I don't think would be possible without additional units cascaded in.

Would it be possible for 153s to have the more minor PRM modifications made and retained to strengthen other units in the same manner as the 466s?
 

whhistle

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One big fleet of similar trains running pretty much all InterCity ECML/ MML/ GWML services would be a big improvement.
We really need to stop thinking the MML is the same level of GWML / WCML / ECML.
It isn't.

The level of service (from trains and investment to First Class offering) is more akin to GEML.


On another note, I haven't read anything about maintenance contracts.
It seems a common theme to have the train builder to perform maintenance.
There's only one operator who is best placed for this. Even if they aren't perhaps the best.

However, to throw more speculation into the mix, the current managers (who are clearly in bed with Bombardier) won't be in their respective positions when the time comes, so who knows!
 
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Japan0913

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We really need to stop thinking the MML is the same level of GWML / WCML / ECML.
It isn't.

The level of service (from trains and investment to First Class offering) is more akin to GEML.
Please clearly indicate how they are different.
Thank you in advance.
 
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whhistle

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Please clearly indicate how they are different.
Thank you in advance.
It's well documented the MML is nicknamed the "cinderella line" - it's always the last on the list.
I think it was the last to get HSTs, and from something I read in a book (The Intercity Story I think), the MML was lucky to get them at all!

The level of investment is considerably different.
There appeared to be no question on electrifying the East and West coasts. GWML has had a few bumps of electrification, but work is still ongoing.
But the MML only having electric up to Market Harborough is simply half a job. There's no reason not to finish the whole line to Sheffield and Nottingham, but because the line isn't seen as important as the ECML or WCML, then it doesn't get the level of investment it needs to sort it for 30+ years.

The pattern of train service, while okay, it isn't great.
It's irregular, meaning trains to the same destination in a short space of time (one slow, one fast), then nothing for a long time.

It was made bad (shafted) when St Pancras was rebuilt.
This means the mainline terminus for the MML has less platforms than tiny towns like Rugby and less platforms than London Marylebone (?). The planning for the concourse / platforms was not very good.

There are other things but these are a few examples.
 

talltim

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I wonder how much of this is due to history, once the Midland Railway became part of the LMS, it became the second choice. Added to this it's routes beyond Leeds are slower than the ECML and WCML. It's main line to Manchester got truncated a long time ago as it was slower than the WCML
 

samuelmorris

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It was made bad (shafted) when St Pancras was rebuilt.
This means the mainline terminus for the MML has less platforms than tiny towns like Rugby and less platforms than London Marylebone (?). The planning for the concourse / platforms was not very good.

There are other things but these are a few examples.
Worth bearing in mind that in terms of throughput, half of St Pancras is downstairs. There's still 6 platforms serving the line, the same as Marylebone.
 

Roast Veg

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Worth bearing in mind that in terms of throughput, half of St Pancras is downstairs. There's still 6 platforms serving the line, the same as Marylebone.
But by that logic surely we must include the Metropolitan line as part of the figure for Marylebone? The MML seems short changed and has no room to explore other options.
 

cactustwirly

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It's well documented the MML is nicknamed the "cinderella line" - it's always the last on the list.
I think it was the last to get HSTs, and from something I read in a book (The Intercity Story I think), the MML was lucky to get them at all!

The level of investment is considerably different.
There appeared to be no question on electrifying the East and West coasts. GWML has had a few bumps of electrification, but work is still ongoing.
But the MML only having electric up to Market Harborough is simply half a job. There's no reason not to finish the whole line to Sheffield and Nottingham, but because the line isn't seen as important as the ECML or WCML, then it doesn't get the level of investment it needs to sort it for 30+ years.

The pattern of train service, while okay, it isn't great.
It's irregular, meaning trains to the same destination in a short space of time (one slow, one fast), then nothing for a long time.

It was made bad (shafted) when St Pancras was rebuilt.
This means the mainline terminus for the MML has less platforms than tiny towns like Rugby and less platforms than London Marylebone (?). The planning for the concourse / platforms was not very good.

There are other things but these are a few examples.

And the GWML isn't a 'half job'?
There are valid reasons why the electrification isn't going past Market Harborough, mainly the constraints around Leicester station.

It should be a mainline intercity railway in it's own right, and is arguably just as important at the GWML
 

samuelmorris

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And the GWML isn't a 'half job'?
There are valid reasons why the electrification isn't going past Market Harborough, mainly the constraints around Leicester station.

It should be a mainline intercity railway in it's own right, and is arguably just as important at the GWML
I was going to say, if any electrification project is a half-job, the GWML is the first one that comes to mind.

Is Leicester really prohibitive for electrification, other than just on cost grounds?
 

Roast Veg

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The reasons given for cancelling electrification were that the BCR wasn't high enough in light of the fact that there would be minimal speed improvements on the already nippy Meridians, weren't they? It's true that journey times would barely decrease on anyhting other than the HST diagrams.
 

Aictos

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I was going to say, if any electrification project is a half-job, the GWML is the first one that comes to mind.

Is Leicester really prohibitive for electrification, other than just on cost grounds?

Surely the main reason for not wiring to Leicester at the moment is as the area will be remodelled as and when funds become available?

So why wire up the lines only to take half the OHL down when you remodel the area?
 

70014IronDuke

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I wonder how much of this is due to history, once the Midland Railway became part of the LMS, it became the second choice. Added to this it's routes beyond Leeds are slower than the ECML and WCML. It's main line to Manchester got truncated a long time ago as it was slower than the WCML

It's not just 'beyond' Leeds. It's most of it. And it's really all down to history. Just as the GC suffered from being the fourth line from the north into London, the Midland suffered for being the third - although the GC was built 'as one route' except for the Metropolitan bit from Aylesbury.

The two prime lines, (what became) the LNW and (especially) the GN, took the plumb routes and plumb traffic centres.

The Midland was built 'going off at an angle' in the first place - the route to London from Derby originally feeding the LNW at Hampton in Arden. Then it got routed via Leicester to Rugby, then via Bedford to Hitchen, and finally the directors bit the bullet and built the London extension to St Pancras in the 1860s. But all those compromises left the Midland with speed restrictions on what is now the main line to london, starting at Derby and including almost everywhere of importance and some of almost no importance (eg Trent, Wigston and even M Harborough).

In steam days, with top speeds of 75 mph or so, these didn't count too much, except perhaps for Glasgow and Edinburgh. But once the GN got Deltics and the LNW got 100 mph electrics, the Midland was exposed with significant timings disadvantage. Plus you've got to add in the fact that little was done to eliminate these horrid PSRs (unlike, say the LNW, where horrid sums were spent in the 70s to elminate eg the 90 mph at Wolverton, all for, at that time anyway, a 10 mph increase).

Much as I love the line, and certainly once it lost being a serious contender for Leeds and Manchester traffic, I don't think it can be compared of the same importance as the GWML, the spine of which serves Bristol/Bath and the longer-distance S Wales and West of England cities plus feeders like Gloucester/Cheltenham, Oxford and Worcester.
 

Rob F

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It's not just 'beyond' Leeds. It's most of it. And it's really all down to history. Just as the GC suffered from being the fourth line from the north into London, the Midland suffered for being the third - although the GC was built 'as one route' except for the Metropolitan bit from Aylesbury.

The two prime lines, (what became) the LNW and (especially) the GN, took the plumb routes and plumb traffic centres.

The Midland was built 'going off at an angle' in the first place - the route to London from Derby originally feeding the LNW at Hampton in Arden. Then it got routed via Leicester to Rugby, then via Bedford to Hitchen, and finally the directors bit the bullet and built the London extension to St Pancras in the 1860s. But all those compromises left the Midland with speed restrictions on what is now the main line to london, starting at Derby and including almost everywhere of importance and some of almost no importance (eg Trent, Wigston and even M Harborough).

In steam days, with top speeds of 75 mph or so, these didn't count too much, except perhaps for Glasgow and Edinburgh. But once the GN got Deltics and the LNW got 100 mph electrics, the Midland was exposed with significant timings disadvantage. Plus you've got to add in the fact that little was done to eliminate these horrid PSRs (unlike, say the LNW, where horrid sums were spent in the 70s to elminate eg the 90 mph at Wolverton, all for, at that time anyway, a 10 mph increase).

Much as I love the line, and certainly once it lost being a serious contender for Leeds and Manchester traffic, I don't think it can be compared of the same importance as the GWML, the spine of which serves Bristol/Bath and the longer-distance S Wales and West of England cities plus feeders like Gloucester/Cheltenham, Oxford and Worcester.
There is truth in all this, but I think I read that the Midland's exit from London as far out as Bedford, is (was) laid out for higher speeds than the GNRs exit from Kings Cross.
 

The dogbox

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I was going to say, if any electrification project is a half-job, the GWML is the first one that comes to mind.

Is Leicester really prohibitive for electrification, other than just on cost grounds?
From what I gather, electrifying to Leicester would be difficult due to clearance under one of the station bridges with a mains sewer underneath it and the council very reluctant to close the road for several weeks. Add in to the fact that the station needs completely remodelling/re-signalling and four tracking from Syston to Wigston with major work required to separate cross country and emt services at the Wigston end, I think wiring to harborough is about as good as it will get for the foreseeable future.
 

Ih8earlies

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I would imagine that the new franchisee will be keeping silent and only announcing new rolling stock orders etc on the 1st day of the franchise. Easiest way of making a splash in the news on day 1 of operations.
 

samuelmorris

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But isn't there a court case brought by the losing bidder(s)?
Yes, but I'm not aware of that court action requiring that the new franchise award be suspended until that's resolved.

What I want to know the most is ordering information for new cars.
I don't think that's been disclosed yet, it will probably be made public around the time the new operator takes over.
 

Japan0913

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I would imagine that the new franchisee will be keeping silent and only announcing new rolling stock orders etc on the 1st day of the franchise. Easiest way of making a splash in the news on day 1 of operations.
I don't think that's been disclosed yet, it will probably be made public around the time the new operator takes over.
I thought that it was customary because there were new car announcements near TPE, WMR, and the recent new FC announcements such as Angria.
Thank you everyone.
 
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