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Westward Ho!

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AnthonyRail

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It did indeed have a railway.
The rather fascinating Bideford and Westward Ho! Railway.
Opened bit by bit between 1901 and 1908, it was shut down by 1917 and stripped for the war effort. Possibly the shortest lived 'proper' railway in the country?
There are traces of it left (I've walked bits of it).
The carriage shed at Bideford is still in existence along with various other things.
Not bad considering it closed over a hundred years ago.
Is that the bus depot op Morrison
 
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Not sure about Morrisons but the monochrome image is Westward Ho! bus station that was. It seems to be an area that is being rapidly developed.
 

randyrippley

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The railway had no connection to any other system. Temporary track had to be laid through the streets to remove a locomotive!

I can remember reading a tale in a railway magazine years ago which contradicts that.
According to the memory of an old boy who claimed to be there, the loco was driven off the rails and onto the (presumably cobbled / stone setts) street. To change direction it was physically lifted on one side using wooden levers, and guided by brute force
Must be 30 years since I read it, but its the kind of thing that sticks in the memory
 

Calthrop

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According to the IRS 'Industrial Locomotives of Dyfed & Powys' book 713 'Grenville' and 715 'Torridge' were requisitioned for use at the Ministry of Munitions, Pembrey, Carmarthenshire in August 1917. Hunslet supplied spares under an order dated 8/8/1919 for 713.

Hunslet also supplied spares under an order dated 9/8/1918 for 714 'Kingsley' at Ministry of Munitions, Avonmouth.

In addition 713 'Grenville' was seen at Oxford GWR on 23/5/1920 en route to another unknown location.
All the above, extremely interesting. The two books which I have on the BWH!&AR -- by Stanley C. Jenkins (1993) and Rod Garner (2008) -- agree in opining that Kingsley stayed in Britain: working for the MOD at Avonmouth and subsequently for the National Smelting Co. Ltd., also at Avonmouth, until withdrawn and scrapped in 1937; whereas the fate of the other two locos after spring / summer 1917, is unknown. The two authors see indications -- "alleged", rather than set down in black and white -- that Grenville and Torridge were embarked somewhere in the south-west of Great Britain, on a ship heading for "France for the Western Front"; which ship was sunk by a German torpedo somewhere en route (various mentions of the Bristol Channel; off the North Devon / North Cornwall coast [the most-cited location]; and the English Channel). A degree of haziness about all this: including something of an "urban legend / meme" flavour -- the same story is told re the track and equipment of a couple of other British minor lines, a long distance from each other and from North Devon, which were requisitioned and dismantled in the same way as the BWH!&A, and at roughly the same time; and (as per @2138Stafford, below), Jenkins notes that according to Lloyds' List, a cargo ship called Gotterdammerung did not exist in 1917.

Both authors mention, however, the locating seemingly in the late 20th century, of a sunken cargo ship somewhere off the stretch of coast between Clovelly and Padstow (a notoriously dangerous bit of coastline at any time -- presumably advantage taken of this, by enemy submarines in wartime); containing "the remains of what appear to be two standard gauge tank engines". One takes it that both authors were either unaware of the abovementioned references to Grenville and Torridge in Britain post-1917; or knew about them but, for whatever reason, gave them no credence.

Information on other forums state that it has not been possible to trace a captured German cargo ship named Gotterdammerung which it is alleged was torpedoed carrying 2 of the BWH&A locomotives.

The vessel's name occasions a little pondering -- with its being an ex-German ship, captured by the Allies; surely, what with acutely hostile feelings between the warring nations, it would have been renamed on capture?

Altogether, it would seem that "the plot thickens" re these two locos -- any hope at this stage, I wonder, of resolving the matter?
 
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Calthrop

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This old thread discredits the tale of the Gotterdammerung
https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/158935-railway-locomotives-on-torpedoed-ship-wreck/

It seems the ship never existed, and there are post war records of both locos

Many thanks. I feel ready to be "converted", as regards what became of Grenville and Torridge. Reckon that I should get the book on the line by Greg Martin, mentioned in your link -- a counterweight to my mentioned ones by Jenkins and Garner; which two gentlemen have perhaps fallen for the romantic sad tale of the war-makers' depredations vis-a-vis the delectable light railway, availing them nothing?

And (irony "smiley"): thank you for acquainting me with the Great War Forum -- a new time-sink of this kind, which I need like a hole in the head :s ...
 

Cowley

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Likewise. Thanks a lot Randyrippley. I got completely lost in that site for an hour this afternoon. :lol:
 

RLBH

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I don't think the fledgling air force bombed Germany itself, BICBW.
The Royal Flying Corps was fairly tactically minded, notwithstanding the Independent Air Force and its' big Handley Page Type Os. The Royal Naval Air Service had rather grander ambitions - they were attacking the German mainland from 1914.
 

Rob F

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Whatever - they were still the enemy and cowards of the very highest order to attack non combatants in such a manner.
Moral minefield alert!
Does that make the crews of RAF Bomber Command and the US 8th Airforce in WW2 'cowards of the very highest order'?

I certainly don't think so.
 

AnthonyRail

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Im at westward ho! This weekend. Planning on walking the old route of the railway. Heres one of the old bridges.20191012_145036.jpg
 
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