Driving styles approaching Castlefield Junction from CLC

Boysteve · 11 Jun 2019

I have observed driving styles by some Northern drivers that I cannot explain, therefore it would be great if somebody could fill in the gaps so to speak.
It does only happens on a minority of occurrences, but it still happens often enough for me to believe it must be a 'thing'.
I have observed drivers heading towards Manchester approach the last but one signal to Castlefield junction as if they are going to stop despite it showing a single yellow aspect for the previous 20 minutes! They then slide past the signal incredibly slowly (like 1mph) and continue at that speed round Saint Georges Island. Sure, it makes no sense to zoom away and then hit the breaks a few seconds later but the crawl can be excruciatingly slow! To the point that it takes 3 minutes for the signal they just passed to turn to red because of how slowly the train clears the overlap.
I just witnessed this behavior again a few minutes ago with 1619 Liverpool to Oxford Road (2099). Observing Tracksy I suspect that the following EMT service had to stop unnecessarily at the previous signal (3 before Castlefield junction) because of the behavior of the Northern train.

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Surreytraveller · 11 Jun 2019

Not familiar with the area. What's the speed restriction? Obviously a single yellow signal means the next one is at danger, so how far away is the next signal?

ComUtoR · 11 Jun 2019

How do you get Tracksy to show signal aspects ? All I get is grey circles.

Timrud · 11 Jun 2019

How would the driver know the signal was showing single yellow for 20 minutes?

Darandio · 11 Jun 2019

What do you mean by 'observing'? On the trains? Lineside?

Boysteve · 11 Jun 2019

Timrud said:
How would the driver know the signal was showing single yellow for 20 minutes?

The point is the previous signal would have been showing double yellow when the driver approached and passed it. So to me there is no apparent need to approach the next signal as if you are going to stop and then crawl quite so slowly for several hundred metres. Granted the line speed is only 30 mph.

Boysteve · 11 Jun 2019

ComUtoR said:
How do you get Tracksy to show signal aspects ? All I get is grey circles.

Darandio said:
What do you mean by 'observing'? On the trains? Lineside?

I can see the signal in question directly outside my study room window! Essentially I am lineside.

Gareth · 11 Jun 2019

But the driver wouldn't have known and even if he did, the fact still remains that the next signal is at danger and so racing towards it would be ill advised.

Boysteve · 11 Jun 2019

Gareth said:
But the driver wouldn't have known and even if he did, the fact still remains that the next signal is at danger and so racing towards it would be ill advised.

YES, I get that. So far nobody has posted anything of use but just questioned my intelligence. Why crawl so excruciatingly slowly? There is no temporary speed restriction. The preceding and following trains did not do this. Yet I reckon ~10% of the services I observed over recent months behave in the same way.

ComUtoR · 11 Jun 2019

Boysteve said:
The point is the previous signal would have been showing double yellow

Is it all 4 aspect ?

when the driver approached and passed it.

Are all the signals automatic or controlled ? The junction signal will be controlled but unless we have a Driver who actually drives and signs the route it is difficult to assume any signal sequence. There could be a overlap issue or the signal keyed specifically to yellow for whatever reason.

So to me there is no apparent need to approach the next signal as if you are going to stop and then crawl quite so slowly for several hundred metres. Granted the line speed is only 30 mph.

Are you directly observing the train go 1mph ? that seems excessive. Is there a curvature or signal sighting issues ?

Surreytraveller · 11 Jun 2019

Boysteve said:
YES, I get that. So far nobody has posted anything of use but just questioned my intelligence. Why crawl so excruciatingly slowly? There is no temporary speed restriction. The preceding and following trains did not do this. Yet I reckon ~10% of the services I observed over recent months behave in the same way.

Not quite sure why none of this information is not of use? What aspect was the previous signal? If it was at danger, and cleared to single yellow then the train wouldn't have got any speed up. They're approaching another red, so they're not going to get any speed up.
Perhaps there's an emergency or temporary speed restriction? Perhaps the trains are being cautioned for some reason?
I would be surprised if they were only going at 1mph

Gareth · 11 Jun 2019

It could also be timetabling, though the idea of a CLC train getting to Castleford early tickles me somewhat.

Surreytraveller · 11 Jun 2019

I'm confused Castlefield Junction is in Manchester CLC = Castle Cary, which is in Somerset ?

Gareth · 11 Jun 2019

Cheshire Lines Committee - Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central.

Surreytraveller · 11 Jun 2019

Gareth said:
Cheshire Lines Committee - Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central.

Cheers

Iskra · 11 Jun 2019

Gareth said:
It could also be timetabling, though the idea of a CLC train getting to Castleford early tickles me somewhat.

Doubly impressive considering there is no service between the two

Gareth · 11 Jun 2019

Not sure if that was my mistake or dumb autocorrect.

ComUtoR · 11 Jun 2019

The linespeed drops from 85 to 30 or 40 to 30 depending on traction. Checking the Sectional Appendix shows 40mph for AC/EMU traction but 85mph for everything else. Would this involve some form of checking down for the junction and speed change ?

Surreytraveller said:
so how far away is the next signal?

There are 3 signals within a mile. Not sure that's much help.

erk · 11 Jun 2019

I was on the train observed by the OP. It did indeed crawl very slowly towards the signal protecting Castlefield junction, but just avoided coming to a complete stop. Usually (in my experience) the xx19 trains from Liverpool approach the junction in a normal manner, and are then held there for five minutes.

Sorry, I can't contribute anything about why this driver (and maybe others) drove the way he did.

sw1ller · 11 Jun 2019

If the service isn’t stopping at deansgate, then there’s a banner repeater and an “off” signal to observe before the train sees the red at the end of deansgate. I go very slowly here too as I don’t like my train to come to a stop at deansgate and then get banging from passengers thinking it’s oxford road and wanting to get off.

I only come on from ordsall lane so don’t know the route before Castlefield junction you’re talking about, only what’s after it.

EDIT

Ignore that, I was eating and reading, so I’ve told you about what happens after Castlefield Jn. Sorry.

The signals are so close though and you won’t see a driver going slow if they have clear signals. It’s so busy round there though, most drivers know if they’re early, and if so, will just wait their turn by going slowly, very slowly.

Tomnick · 12 Jun 2019

If the signal aspects are as reported, all that I can think is that it's an attempt to coast all the way to the red at Castlefield combined with arriving in the parish a few minutes early. There's a rising gradient past the (in this case) double yellow, which is where the linespeed drops to 30mph. Personally I (not Northern) take power with a double yellow there to maintain 30mph up to the single yellow, shut off coming over the top and start braking for the red only when it comes into view on the final straight. As above, though, the stopping trains (in common with most?) seem to have loads of recovery time approaching Castlefield Jn., so normally get held there waiting for their booked path with the Norwich often held at the signal in rear, so there's not much point in either train rushing around if everything's on time (which, from the CLC direction, it often is).

ComUtoR said:
Is it all 4 aspect ?

It is.

ComUtoR said:
Are all the signals automatic or controlled ? The junction signal will be controlled but unless we have a Driver who actually drives and signs the route it is difficult to assume any signal sequence. There could be a overlap issue or the signal keyed specifically to yellow for whatever reason.

All automatic apart from the final one protecting the junction, which is obviously controlled. There's no problem with overlaps - you can and do receive the standard aspect sequence approaching the red.

ComUtoR said:
Are you directly observing the train go 1mph ? that seems excessive. Is there a curvature or signal sighting issues ?

The single yellow (in this case) isn't brilliantly sighted but not terrible either - 20mph at the magnet and you can see it from there - but the rest are very well sighted.

ComUtoR said:
The linespeed drops from 85 to 30 or 40 to 30 depending on traction. Checking the Sectional Appendix shows 40mph for AC/EMU traction but 85mph for everything else. Would this involve some form of checking down for the junction and speed change ?

No, you can get greens right through, although it's a very rare event indeed! Just the standard Morpeth board and TPWS loops for the speed change, but that all happens before this anyway.

ComUtoR · 12 Jun 2019

erk said:
Usually (in my experience) the xx19 trains from Liverpool approach the junction in a normal manner, and are then held there for five minutes.

Which is why some will approach a signal slowly, rather than run up to it just to end up stopping and being held.

sw1ller said:
I go very slowly here too as I don’t like my train to come to a stop at deansgate and then get banging from passengers thinking it’s oxford road and wanting to get off.

Pretty standard for many of us. I never like being held in a platform I'm not booked to stop at.

The signals are so close though and you won’t see a driver going slow if they have clear signals. It’s so busy round there though, most drivers know if they’re early, and if so, will just wait their turn by going slowly, very slowly

Tomnick said:
As above, though, the stopping trains (in common with most?) seem to have loads of recovery time approaching Castlefield Jn., so normally get held there waiting for their booked path with the Norwich often held at the signal in rear, so there's not much point in either train rushing around if everything's on time (which, from the CLC direction, it often is).

All sounds like standard defensive driving techniques. Cheers all.

slipdigby · 12 Jun 2019

The latest timetable change added in further performance allowance at the Manchester end which now means that CLC stoppers are regularly passing Cornbrook 4 or 5 minutes early. Therefore, some drivers of on-time trains are taking it very easy on the approach knowing that the alternative is a fairly boring wait staring at the canal outside Castlefield.

Boysteve · 12 Jun 2019

Tomnick said:
If the signal aspects are as reported, all that I can think is that it's an attempt to coast all the way to the red at Castlefield combined with arriving in the parish a few minutes early. There's a rising gradient past the (in this case) double yellow, which is where the linespeed drops to 30mph. Personally I (not Northern) take power with a double yellow there to maintain 30mph up to the single yellow, shut off coming over the top and start braking for the red only when it comes into view on the final straight. As above, though, the stopping trains (in common with most?) seem to have loads of recovery time approaching Castlefield Jn., so normally get held there waiting for their booked path with the Norwich often held at the signal in rear, so there's not much point in either train rushing around if everything's on time (which, from the CLC direction, it often is).

Thankyou Tomnick, I guess you are EMT? Next time you stop outside my window (like the 17:51 Liverpool - Norwich just did) I shall wave!

Tomnick · 12 Jun 2019

Boysteve said:
Thankyou Tomnick, I guess you are EMT? Next time you stop outside my window (like the 17:51 Liverpool - Norwich just did) I shall wave!

Assuming you mean the signal in rear of the one protecting the junction, then yes, I’m very familiar with the view from there!

Boysteve · 12 Jun 2019

Tomnick said:
Assuming you mean the signal in rear of the one protecting the junction, then yes, I’m very familiar with the view from there!

Yes I do!

Driving styles approaching Castlefield Junction from CLC

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