Mayor of London reopens 'metro rail to TfL' debate

Taunton · 9 Jun 2019

I think Mayor Khan ought to concentrate on getting Crossrail going first, where all seems to have gone quiet for the best part of a year now, rather than ignoring that and trying to grab something else.

Regarding station staffing and TfL commitments to it, the recent Thameslink accident at Elstree (see RAIB report) showed that although three members of staff were apparently on duty at the station, including one supposedly on platform duties, they were nowhere around when the PTI accident happened. So staffing is not the be all and end all of safety.

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bionic · 9 Jun 2019

Taunton said:
Regarding station staffing and TfL commitments to it, the recent Thameslink accident at Elstree (see RAIB report) showed that although three members of staff were apparently on duty at the station, including one supposedly on platform duties, they were nowhere around when the PTI accident happened. So staffing is not the be all and end all of safety.

They were not on train dispatch duties but customer service duties. Elstree is a DOO station and does not have dispatch staff.

bramling · 9 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
A member of staff in a ticket office on a system where most fares are paid automatically via Oyster or contactless is definitely not effective. One member of staff among the passengers would be more useful than three in the ticket office and unable to leave it.

Have to say I completely disagree with that. Perhaps I’m of the generation that’s used to booking offices, but I’d rather have a definitive location where I know I can find a member of staff, who I know will have proficiency in ticketing matters, and for whom there will be an orderly queue.

The current setup on LU reminds me of someone going out to feed a pack of dogs - quite often there can be a lone member of staff surrounded by a bunch of people all competing for attention, and in many cases asking stuff which they could very easily resolve for themselves simply by looking at a map. That’s when there are staff that is, many stations at the extremes of lines are routinely unmanned at various times of day, or the staff are doing station duties and nowhere near the booking hall.

Starmill · 9 Jun 2019

bramling said:
but I’d rather have a definitive location where I know I can find a member of staff, who I know will have proficiency in ticketing matters

If only most stations with a ticket office could offer that!

Taunton · 10 Jun 2019

bionic said:
They were not on train dispatch duties but customer service duties. Elstree is a DOO station and does not have dispatch staff.

From RAIB report:
"...the other was a platform assistant, who normally works on the platform assisting customers..."
Now I doubt that many passengers will appreciate the internal turf war between "staff assisting passengers on the platform" and "dispatch". The fact is that of four (including the driver) staff on duty, not only did the incident occur but "nobody saw nuffin' guv".

bionic · 10 Jun 2019

Taunton said:
From RAIB report:
"...the other was a platform assistant, who normally works on the platform assisting customers..."
Now I doubt that many passengers will appreciate the internal turf war between "staff assisting passengers on the platform" and "dispatch". The fact is that of four (including the driver) staff on duty, not only did the incident occur but "nobody saw nuffin' guv".

Yes, but out of those 4 people, only the driver was responsible for observing the PTI and train dispatch. Saying the platform staff "on customer service duties" should have been looking for dog leads trapped in doors is like saying the driver should have left his cab, walked back and sold someone a cheap day return because there was a queue at the ticket window.

Bletchleyite · 10 Jun 2019

Starmill said:
If only most stations with a ticket office could offer that!

It certainly isn't offered on most Merseyrail stations.

si404 · 10 Jun 2019

bramling said:
Have to say I completely disagree with that. Perhaps I’m of the generation that’s used to booking offices, but I’d rather have a definitive location where I know I can find a member of staff, who I know will have proficiency in ticketing matters, and for whom there will be an orderly queue.

other than orderly queuing what does that matter? Ticketing in London, especially on the tube, is simplistic (perhaps overly so - my station has NR service, but can't buy anything like the full range of tickets from the LU ticket machines - which have a slightly larger range than the office did!) that ticket knowledge is something that isn't really a skilled job - requests are basically along the lines of "can you do the machine for me?" when it comes to ticketing. There's more useful stuff that staff can help with, most notably providing the appearance of safety with someone there.

As for unstaffed outer stations, customer perception was that these stations were unstaffed anyway, save for periods when the ticket office was open. Not that that member of staff was much help unless your problem was ticketing, which it rarely was.

infobleep · 10 Jun 2019

hwl said:
TfL started a renewed push in the week before Easter this year but it didn't get much coverage due to the timing. Still under estimating the costs, challenges and they don't have the money needed to make the changes. My gut feeling is that they know the level of real fare evasion and reckon they could make mint out of proper enforcement and hope that DfT will provide hefty subsidy to help them take it over not realising the revenue potential, the problem is that DfT aren't that stupid and if the new franchise starts bringing in the money it will be harder for TfL to takeover at some point in the future.

Some people say fare evasion occurs at night when there are no staff around, although maybe they are referring to outside of London, as aren't London stations staffed until midnight?

Wolfie · 10 Jun 2019

infobleep said:
Some people say fare evasion occurs at night when there are no staff around, although maybe they are referring to outside of London, as aren't London stations staffed until midnight?

Lots of non-TfL London stations don't seem to be staffed at all..

glbotu · 11 Jun 2019

I would posit that there has been some minor leak vis-a-vis the Williams review and devolution and the mayor is just playing a bit of politics by bringing it up first.

There are already quite a few hints that devolution is the direction the review is going, so it could be that tfl are getting inner London suburban services anyway, but politicians need everyone to know it's their idea, because that's how politics works.

hwl · 11 Jun 2019

infobleep said:
Some people say fare evasion occurs at night when there are no staff around, although maybe they are referring to outside of London, as aren't London stations staffed until midnight?

The SE stations they have their eyes on are barely staffed at all let alone till midnight!
Southern staffing (and gating) is much better than SE.

ScotGG · 11 Jun 2019

infobleep said:
Some people say fare evasion occurs at night when there are no staff around, although maybe they are referring to outside of London, as aren't London stations staffed until midnight?

90% (that's no exaggeration) of SE stations in London are open (even extremely busy hub stations like Greenwich and Woolwich much of the time) and its DOO. Evasion is rife. It's a million miles from TfL's network despite job cuts.

Other London TOCs are better but still poor in many places. TfL think with staffing they can raise much more revenue. It seems to be backed up having taken over Abbey Wood and seen immediate 50% increases in counted passengers tapping in.

option · 11 Jun 2019

glbotu said:
I would posit that there has been some minor leak vis-a-vis the Williams review and devolution and the mayor is just playing a bit of politics by bringing it up first.

There are already quite a few hints that devolution is the direction the review is going, so it could be that tfl are getting inner London suburban services anyway, but politicians need everyone to know it's their idea, because that's how politics works.

I would think they are also well aware of the situations that the various franchises are finding themselves in. GA & SWR having financial issues, Southeastern franchise not being awarded.
Add in the impact of Crossrail. (maybe they'll extend it to Dartford!)

I'm sure they've been doing a 'what if' on the franchises failing, & know that if they present DfT with a plan if/when they do, they stand a good chance of gaining some of the services.

DynamicSpirit · 11 Jun 2019

ScotGG said:
90% (that's no exaggeration) of SE stations in London are open (even extremely busy hub stations like Greenwich and Woolwich much of the time) and its DOO. Evasion is rife. It's a million miles from TfL's network despite job cuts.

Other London TOCs are better but still poor in many places. TfL think with staffing they can raise much more revenue. It seems to be backed up having taken over Abbey Wood and seen immediate 50% increases in counted passengers tapping in.

I can well believe that and I do think that fully staffing and gating stations would be good for passengers. Having said that, Abbey Wood was very easy to gate because the rebuild for Crossrail has created just one single entrance that's inside the main building, and therefore easy to control. God knows how they could completely gate a station like Greenwich without quite a bit of rebuilding works! Lots of other stations in the SE metro area aren't as bad as Greenwich in that regard but still have multiple outside entrances that would be hard to control, but which would cause a lot of inconvenience to passengers if they were closed.

LeeLivery · 11 Jun 2019

bionic said:
Another map, published by TFL a couple of years ago...
View attachment 64254

Bizarrely didn't want Caterham & Tattenham Corner (Surrey but both Zone 6) or the Guildford & Woking services which are an integral part of the SW Suburban network. Splitting it away doesn't make much sense while wanting Windsor & Eaton and Weybridge via Chertsey.

infobleep · 11 Jun 2019

Wolfie said:
Lots of non-TfL London stations don't seem to be staffed at all..

True. I was just thinking of those with barriers.

infobleep · 11 Jun 2019

hwl said:
The SE stations they have their eyes on are barely staffed at all let alone till midnight!
Southern staffing (and gating) is much better than SE.

Is that due to franchise agreements? South Western Railway levels went up once they took over due to franchise agreements.

infobleep · 11 Jun 2019

DynamicSpirit said:
I can well believe that and I do think that fully staffing and gating stations would be good for passengers. Having said that, Abbey Wood was very easy to gate because the rebuild for Crossrail has created just one single entrance that's inside the main building, and therefore easy to control. God knows how they could completely gate a station like Greenwich without quite a bit of rebuilding works! Lots of other stations in the SE metro area aren't as bad as Greenwich in that regard but still have multiple outside entrances that would be hard to control, but which would cause a lot of inconvenience to passengers if they were closed.

Passengers being inconvenienced has stopped the subway at Waterloo being closed off peak. The exit at one of the Oxford platforms being closed off peak and so on.

hwl · 12 Jun 2019

infobleep said:
Is that due to franchise agreements? South Western Railway levels went up once they took over due to franchise agreements.

Completely.
SE would have to pick up all the costs and would see subsidy reduction too so absolutely no one sane would!

DfT have to break the cycle at refranchising.

infobleep · 12 Jun 2019

hwl said:
Completely.
SE would have to pick up all the costs and would see subsidy reduction too so absolutely no one sane would!

DfT have to break the cycle at refranchising.

Is the subsidy reduction due to them bringing in more money?

Do franchises factor this in when bidding for new franchises?

hwl · 12 Jun 2019

infobleep said:
Is the subsidy reduction due to them bringing in more money?

Do franchises factor this in when bidding for new franchises?

Yes and Yes

infobleep · 12 Jun 2019

hwl said:
Yes and Yes

It's a shame they aren't allowed to factor it in afterwards with the deviation to their franchise agreement. However I'm getting away from the topic.

Mayor of London reopens 'metro rail to TfL' debate

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