Is this the cause?
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SouthEastern franchise direct award through to 1 April 2020 (& franchise competition terminated)
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Class 466
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Probably last minute extension again. Whether that’s the outcome I’d like is another matter.
KashmireHawker
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If DfT don't have answers when it comes to Transport Questions on Thursday Morning, who knows where SE passengers will end up.
3141
Established Member
On the same trains as usual, running at the same times, I would guess.
700007
Established Member
My money right now is on temporary nationalisation. Govia is clearly trying to milk whatever they can with the extension and are happy to walk away and see the DfT go up in flames if that happens. However it seems to be that given their talks have run down the clocks and we are 12 days away from contract expiring, that DfT are not budging to give into Govia's demands. By doing this, I imagine they are ready to release OLR2 (or whichever number we have gotten to) on Southeastern if need be. If they were worried about reaching no agreement before contract expiration then they would have given in ages ago.
DfT is also hoping to use Brexit, and the Tory leadership contest, as a cover to get away with this. Given the recent battering of their already poor reputation, they're probably willing to take another punch as they have nothing to lose anymore. Also helps that Grayling will probably get taken off cabinet hopefully before Parliament rises for summer recess so he couldn't care anymore.
Seems to be the perfect Mexican stand off.
DfT is also hoping to use Brexit, and the Tory leadership contest, as a cover to get away with this. Given the recent battering of their already poor reputation, they're probably willing to take another punch as they have nothing to lose anymore. Also helps that Grayling will probably get taken off cabinet hopefully before Parliament rises for summer recess so he couldn't care anymore.
Seems to be the perfect Mexican stand off.
Class 170101
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Also the day of the announcement of the candidates who have made it to the next round of voting. The result is due to be announced sometime around 13:00 according to Cheryl Gillian (acting Chair of 1922 Committee).
Mikey C
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Really frustrating when you see other new franchises expanding and replacing their fleets, especially with the delay to Crossrail which would have taken some of the pressure off the North Kent lines.
OxtedSignaller
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I reckon Govia will get another extension they will be pretty keen to hang onto Southeastern seeing as GTR is unprofitable due to the fines they have been given. Why not just award them the contract instead of doing extension after extension...
Because there is supposed to be due process.
Crossrail will only help one Metro line in London. The other two Dartford lines plus Hayes and Orpington lines get little to no relief from it. Yet those in charge keep thinking its some sort of panacea to all ills and could be why they have been so poor at forward planning (new stock and places to store them)
Crossrail will only help one Metro line in London. The other two Dartford lines plus Hayes and Orpington lines get little to no relief from it. Yet those in charge keep thinking its some sort of panacea to all ills and could be why they have been so poor at forward planning (new stock and places to store them)
HS1 does nothing for London Metro routes really and crossrail helps 1 out of 6 Metro lines. The danger is the rest get overlooked.I doubt it'll do much for the Welling line (bus links from even Welling to Abbey Wood/Woolwich are slow) let alone the Sidcup line. Nothing for Hayes/Orpington.
Crossrail isn't just about commuting, something we all seem to forget.
Crossrail is going to provide a lot of choice and opportunity for that part of Kent and indeed South East London. Destination is very important. The close and very direct impact will absolutely be anything going through Abbey Wood. That is services via the North Kent, via Greenwich, and the DLR out of Woolwich. What is also impacted is Dartford and stations beyond. People travel from Dartford and into Lewisham/Charing Cross/London Bridge to interchange to the Tube. Everyone making some kind of cross London connection can now make a decision on what line to take. That will impact all 3 lines out of Dartford. It also reduces the crowding and congestion at Lewisham, which impacts all lines.
What will also happen is that local traffic will alter significantly. Not just the local bus network but cars. Station car parks are full and many people will travel by car and then travel into London. I suspect that many people will adjust their starting point when Crossrail kicks off. Abbey Wood and Woolwich pull in traffic from a large area of South East London.
For me, I'm looking at journey times. I am a mostly a leisure traveler when I use the train and a service that takes me right into Tottenham Court road is very very tempting. I'm sure others looking at the map see other opportunities too. What is also important to note is that big giant link to Heathrow. That will influence travel too.
I think what we also have to consider it not so much about how much it will ease each line but how much it will generate travel into Abbey Wood/Woolwich.
The numbers of people coming in from Dartford and Medway through Greenwich/Lewisham is pretty small though as an overall percentage of metro passengers. Easily get a seat until z4-6 in London. Even if most from dartford and beyond switch to crossrail, potential passengers from new housebuilding in London swallows up the capacity created.
Not many will drive or take a bus to Abbey Wood as 1) there are very few car parks (and new housing blocks are being built on one at least beside the station and the station car park now staff only - oh and a parking zone is to be rolled out to most of the town later this year) and 2) buses are still not great from the wider area and Knee Hill means little can be done really about that.
I think only the Abbey Wood line will really see much extra capacity created from crossrail. Marginal on welling line and little on others. Abbey Wood line will fill up soon too further along when Charlton Riverside plans get underway (20k people).
Not many will drive or take a bus to Abbey Wood as 1) there are very few car parks (and new housing blocks are being built on one at least beside the station and the station car park now staff only - oh and a parking zone is to be rolled out to most of the town later this year) and 2) buses are still not great from the wider area and Knee Hill means little can be done really about that.
I think only the Abbey Wood line will really see much extra capacity created from crossrail. Marginal on welling line and little on others. Abbey Wood line will fill up soon too further along when Charlton Riverside plans get underway (20k people).
Class 466
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HS services are already overcooked in the peaks with not enough stock to strengthen any more. Further delays are only going to worsen the problem with no solution in sight. Forget services to Hastings. The core routes are already rammed.
Mikey C
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And as unique stock, it's not as if any existing stock can be cascaded from other lines either.
Class 170101
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The HS stock is unique but of course it need not serve all around the Kent Coast. It could be terminated at Faversham, Dover or other appropriate locations and the gaps served by 3rd Rail stock.
Hmmm... No. Considering Deal is massively underserved, it needs more trains. There's already problems at Dover because of a train always taking up Platform 2, the best thing for the line is to keep the 'loop' service (which is very popular and getting rid of it would annoy a lot of people, me included) and extend the Charing Cross services to Ramsgate.
As for the HS service in general, the next franchise should get another fleet of AT300s (compatible, of course, with the Javelins) so almost all services are 12 coaches. It is needed.
Do they have TVM (in cab signalling) ?
By default? No conventional UK signalling (and one assumes provision for ETCS). But there's no reason why it couldn't be fitted to a build of AT300s if the next franchisee decided to go that way.
Dumpton Park
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Probably justified in going for 12 car 395s (396s?) for the new build when it eventually happens. The capacity is needed for a lot of the day - and week. It's noticeable how busy Sundays often are.
DP
DP
brad465
Established Member
The franchise/area could also do with creating services off HS1 that are faster and/or better linked to reduce numbers driving to Ebbsfleet from all over Kent (I have a colleague who's driven from Herne Bay for London business before, among other cases), which ultimately holds some responsibility for HS1 overcrowding. They'll certainly need to fix that in time for the prospective Garden city traffic. Such services that could help are faster trains into Charing X on the SEML and getting this planned Thameslink service down the Maidstone East line into Blackfriars/St Pancras ASAP.
I've been up the front of a Javelin and there is much more than just a software build. There appears to be some significant hardware involved. No doubt the gubbins are also quite extensive.
I'm not genned up with rolling stock so I'd ask the experts how easy would it be to order/extend the 395 fleet ? Wouldn't that be a significant increase in cost for any new Franchisee ? Surely its better to change the Metro fleet (potentially 707s) and then cascade stock internally. I'm with class 170101, in that HS1 could become more independent from the SE network (no increase in stock needed) and that a new Metro fleet means they can reshuffle the SE fleet.
Personally I would like to see an entire fleet replacement and that SE moves towards a more unified fleet (like GTR) with a single traction (HS1 excluded). Dump Networks and Electrostars. Little bit of a pipe dream I know.
Metal_gee_man
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They must both stop the St Pancras to St Pancras circulars via Sandwich and Herne Bay and the Maidstone West's to free up existing rolling stock and either continue or bolster existing core routes so its:
2tph to Ramsgate via Canterbury West
2tph to Dover Priory via Folkestone West
2tph to Faversham via Medway Towns
Then potentially use the 375s or newly cascaded 707s (insert other stock no. Here) to run shuttles round the coast between Faversham Ramsgate and Dover Priory so they connect with the 395 services at any of those three termini for HS1 with the existing Charing Cross/Victoria services still intertwined between the 2tph shuttles between Faversham via Ramsgate to Dover Priory!
As I see it you would only need 24 sets of 6 car 395s (running as 12 car units) to run that service pattern leaving 5 sets for event usage (West Ham/London Stadium) or Peak/breakdown coverage
And only a minimum 4 extra 4 car 375s to run the shuttles
And eventually the promised new Thameslink services taking up the slack in Maidstone so no new stock there
Because doing so would be illegal under EU competition law.
700007
Established Member
If you were to rejig the services to make use of the limited rolling stock, I would rather see HS1 services become fast on the Chatham Main Line. The Ramsgate service definitely could be sped up to only call at Gravesend, Chatham, Sittingbourne, Faversham and all the current off peak stations to Ramsgate. I would unfortunately also take the decision to cut the Maidstone West's to Gravesend temporarily until new stock is sourced.
Mainline trains would effectively have to, like in your proposal, run using the existing paths and try connect with the High Speed services somewhere like Gravesend.
FlippyFF
Member
Could the existing depots service a 12 car '395' or are the current facilities only suitable for one 6 car unit per road?
TIA
Simon
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
The current trains are only 10 years old. Would it be feasible to just build new carriages for the current fleet so that all units become 12 car? That would implicitly free up some units because there'd be no more running 2 units coupled together. And you'd get an extra bonus that one 12 car unit can have more seats than two coupled 6-car units (or if you prefer, more space for toilets/luggage/cycles/etc.) because you don't have the extra cabs taking up space in the middle of the train.
And can all stations that the Javelins would potentially serve able to take 12 cars?
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Do HS1 and St Pancras have the capacity to run more trains than at present?
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