Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If they are pick up only going north, they will show at Bolton, yes.
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TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding?
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If they are pick up only going north, they will show at Bolton, yes.
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Bletchleyite
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Most people won't. There are a number of VTs from Euston in the evening peak that stop set-down-only at MKC, and there are not manual ticket checks for every VT departure at Euston (though it's most these days). You only see at most one or two having "been a bit cheeky" and getting off when you board at MKC going north.
There is a "fairness" argument of ignoring the odd few, but in reality they won't cause a problem. The point of it is to stop them being crowded out to the point passengers to Scotland can't board, and to stop 13/14 operations being adversely affected by said crowds trying to board/alight through end doors. One or two doesn't cause a problem.
td97
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Definitely so. The ECML between any of Darlington/Durham/Newcastle is served by any of TPE, XC, and LNER. The ticket combinations available include off-peak, anytime and advance/specified train only, as well as TPE-only and XC-only of the 2 former options.
One of the issues with this approach is confusion created by operator-specific ticket validity and implications on dwell times at Piccadilly. It works in Newcastle because most services either start from a terminal platform or have a booked 10-15 minute stop, which provides plenty of time for the guard to make announcements regarding validity. They are very, very clear about what is and isn't valid and complete thorough ticket checks upon departure. However, enforcing this on a booked 2 minute stop at P14 would be nigh-on impossible.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Surely it's enforced by flogging a new ticket when you do the ticket check? The TOC get their money, the passenger maybe learns their lesson - no problem?
People getting the Glasgow bound train with the plan to alight at Bolton are of course running the risk that the train could be diverted and they would have no entitlement to compensation should they end up at Preston . They would also be liable for paying to get themselves back from Preston . If there is any problems on the route from Manchester to Preston via Chorley then the first thing TPE will do is divert these services via chat moss and onto the WCML at Golborne junction which only leaves them to arrange forward transport for passengers boarding at Bolton .
Of course anyone getting the Airport bound train from Bolton isnt really exposed to the same risk , but apart from in the morning peak are the numbers of passengers from Bolton going to present an issue ?
Of course anyone getting the Airport bound train from Bolton isnt really exposed to the same risk , but apart from in the morning peak are the numbers of passengers from Bolton going to present an issue ?
Until one morning when the Northern service is cancelled , delayed or short formed and then you have a platform full of passengers who have been unable to board who try to board the next train .
I can just see the story in the local papers now , or the raft of report forms from staff verbally abused or assaulted for trying to enforce this .
Greybeard33
Established Member
The biggest problem with enforcing the restrictions will not be at Bolton but on Piccadilly P14 in the evening peak (xx26 departures). Amidst all the chaos of overcrowding, red lines, "shouters" and Scotland passengers with suitcases trying to get to their reserved seats.
It will not be feasible to try to get the Bolton passengers to wait in the lounge, because a Northern service to Blackpool via Bolton is scheduled into P14 straight after the TPE.
It will not be feasible to try to get the Bolton passengers to wait in the lounge, because a Northern service to Blackpool via Bolton is scheduled into P14 straight after the TPE.
They must have come to the conclusion that to try and enforce the set down only rule at this location is more bother than it's worth - they need those services in and out of the platform as quickly as possible given the congested nature of the line there.
The set down only rule at Motherwell in BR days was also rigerouslly enforced
td97
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So just add further barriers to rail travel and screw the passenger, who in an equivalent situation say the week/month beforehand would have been entirely innocent? The lesson learnt by the passenger will be to drive into Manchester next time if they've ended up paying for 2 tickets and been told off by the guard. Some of the car parks on the outskirts are ridiculously cheap, especially on the wasteland only just behind Victoria.
So service distruption. Maybe the long distance passengers can cope with 20 minutes of Bolton passengers on their service. There seems to be a notion that TPE Scottish/Cumbrian passengers have an exclusive entitlement to a standee-free and commuter-free service for the final 20 minutes into/out of Manchester.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Fundamentally segregation of InterCity and local flows makes sense. There are many ways it is done internationally, but there are more countries that do it than don't do it, most far more strictly than the UK. Compulsory reservations is one, different ticketing is another. I just don't see an issue with it on this flow. There should be commuter EMUs for the commuters.
Of course in a sensible world Greater Manchester would have an integrated rail, bus and tram ticketing system, with no "train tickets" sold from Manchester to Bolton at all, simply TfGM tickets for use on the mode(s) of your choosing. These would not be valid on IC trains, of which this is one.
But if we are going to make a railway fit for purpose, long-distance trains being used by commuters, or vice-versa, don't always work. Not for TOCs, not for passengers, not for passenger comfort.
But TPE carries commuters from Huddersfield and Dewsbury to Leeds and from Newton-le Willows to both Manchester and Liverpool, even though there are slower alternatives. And what about Penrith - Carlisle or Wigan - Warrington, where there are no local services?
Fawkes Cat
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Am I right in understanding that we're talking about trains running Scotland - (various places) - Bolton - Piccadilly - Airport and back again? Because if so there is a difference for the long distance travellers.
Heading North, the passengers from Manchester to Glasgow presumably want to sit down all the way - but without any restriction, they'll be fighting Bolton commuters for their seats until the train gets to Bolton.
Going south, our long distance travellers are already sitting down by the time the train gets to Bolton. A seated passenger won't be particularly inconvenienced by commuters standing in the aisle next to them.
So it is the North-bound flow that - somehow - will need controlling. So we're talking about boarding control in Manchester, and alighting control in Bolton.
Heading North, the passengers from Manchester to Glasgow presumably want to sit down all the way - but without any restriction, they'll be fighting Bolton commuters for their seats until the train gets to Bolton.
Going south, our long distance travellers are already sitting down by the time the train gets to Bolton. A seated passenger won't be particularly inconvenienced by commuters standing in the aisle next to them.
So it is the North-bound flow that - somehow - will need controlling. So we're talking about boarding control in Manchester, and alighting control in Bolton.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
TPE proper is more a regional express operation than an IC one. Really the only "proper" IC they have is the Scottish service under discussion.
That is a quirk of the system, but nobody is proposing barring those passengers from it because, unlike Bolton, there is no alternative service.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
And that way round just sticking a "u" on Bolton solves it completely (if you want to put enough uncertainty up the commuters, occasionally run it non-stop to Preston with an alternative running just behind for those from Bolton). For passengers doing Airport-Bolton there is the Blackpool service.
They'll just not advertise the service as stopping at Bolton.
Some will be in the know and will get on, but many won't especially if another Bolton service is following behind, which is quite likely.
No need for all this over the top talk as if some here are deliberately going to go out of their way to board and alight at Bolton just to make a point.
Some will be in the know and will get on, but many won't especially if another Bolton service is following behind, which is quite likely.
No need for all this over the top talk as if some here are deliberately going to go out of their way to board and alight at Bolton just to make a point.
Howardh
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So how do you tell me at Manchester Airport not to board that train which is going to my destination (Bolton)? Also, if it gets conveniently diverted via Wigan, if pax for Bolton ARE allowed on at MIA, what do they do when it gets diverted?
Howardh
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As alluded to above, towards Manchester isn't necessarily the problem, it's Manchester - Bolton where those bound for further north might not get a seat until Bolton - however wouldn't they be able to reserve a seat when buying their long-distance ticket/
The issue is that Manchester to Scotland passengers want to be able to get on the train without and not be prevented from doing so because the train is full of people going to Bolton.
When the Scotland trains were diverted via Wigan they initially called there and again overcrowding was a problem (but at least The Shouters hadn't appeared then). The Wigan stop was subsequently taken out of most TPE service but that was no major problem as Wigan has frequent Virgin trains to Scotland.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Wigan is slightly difference than Bolton, that TPE provided at the time the only fast service between Manchester & Wigan, the alternatives were a mix of all-stops & semi-fasts via Hindley [both via Bolton & via Swinton] where you never quite knew what was going to pop up (142/150 or 156) compared to the non-stop 185/350 (which also had air conditioning). Stand for ~ 25 minutes on a 350 or stand for ~ 45 minutes on a 142 calling everywhere, take your pick. Since TPE stopped serving Wigan there was an hourly Northern service (previously Blackpool, now Barrow/Windermere)
Bolton on the other hand has 7 (?) services an hour to Manchester of which all bar 1 are fast to Salford, so there isn't much of a journey time penalty for Bolton passengers to have to wait for the next available service
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because it's not a train for local journeys within Greater Manchester. There are others you can use. The same argument applies to Picc.
Howardh
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In the next hour the departures from MIA are (I have emboldened the ones that go through Bolton)
19:29 Preston (Lancs) On time 4A Detailsfor the 19:29
19:39 Blackpool North On time 1A Detailsfor the 19:39
19:47 Middlesbrough On time 2A Detailsfor the 19:47
19:50 Liverpool Lime Street On time 3B Detailsfor the 19:50
19:53 Cleethorpes On time 3A Detailsfor the 19:53
19:59 Manchester Piccadilly On time 2A Detailsfor the 19:59
20:05 Wilmslow On time 3A Detailsfor the 20:05
20:10 Preston (Lancs) On time 1A Detailsfor the 20:10
20:19 York
So in the next hour there's one direct train and the others require a change, Two would be Cleethorpes and Middlesborough which are "not a train for local journeys within Greater Manchester" yet would be used by those wanting to change at Picc!
I've travelled on one of those trains once. The display boards in London and on the train said first stop Stoke, as were the guard's announcements. As I hadn't looked at the timetable I didn't realise it also stopped at Milton Keynes so it worried me a bit when we did stop!
Plenty of people got on but I didn't see anyone get off.
No, because their local journey might well prevent someone else getting their train for Scotland. There are other options for Bolton, nothing else for Scotland.
I have had exactly the same problem not being able to get on TPE trains coming west from Leeds: the journey ends up taking an hour longer (or more if connections don't work later in the day) just because the train is crammed with people who can't be arsed to wait for a stopper to Dewsbury or Huddersfield.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The solution here, as with Reading, is to provide choices and options. Commuters will generally get the next fast train and won't care who runs it. They'll only make a beeline for the express if the alternatives are worse.
Trying to enforce pick-up/set-down won't work if the train is the most attractive one for commuters. The solution is a crowd-busting fast train 5mins before the TPE. Start it at Bolton so commuters will definitely go for it as they'll get a seat. Same in the evening.
If a train is very popular there's usually a reason. And carrots work better than sticks.
Trying to enforce pick-up/set-down won't work if the train is the most attractive one for commuters. The solution is a crowd-busting fast train 5mins before the TPE. Start it at Bolton so commuters will definitely go for it as they'll get a seat. Same in the evening.
If a train is very popular there's usually a reason. And carrots work better than sticks.
but should customers have to fight their way to their seats?
Or what if a commuter decides to sit down in a reserved seat?
I suppose they could state 'reservations only' on the screens at Manchester.
iain-j
Member
TPE already do a similar thing with Edinburgh Waverley - Manchester Airport service, where in none of the departure boards in the Waverley or the on-board announcements on the train itself list it as stopping at Haymarket with Lockerbie being the first announced stop. For the return service none of the boards or announcements at Haymarket make any mention of it stopping there, except for a rare occasion where a Haymarket - North Berwick service was now starting at Edinburgh Waverley and that passengers should get on the TPE that was arriving so they could get through to Waverley.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That would be all very well, but Castlefield is full and they don't want to go to Victoria.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Then there's your answer as to why restrictions don't work.
"Oh you're a commuter, so you have to get the stopper to somewhere you don't want to go" isn't quite the advertising slogan I'd go for.
strangemonk
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On my shielas when we have stratford in for pick up at the station it wont be advertised so no one will be expecting to board only drop off when when we arrive from LST for pick up the departure board advertises the next service typically being a train going to LST
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