Routing Guide Query - Glasgow to Chathill

furryfeet · 10 Feb 2010

Is it permitted to travel from Glasgow to Chathill via Alnmouth, since there do not appear to be any direct trains from edinburgh to chathill. There is only a local service to and from Alnmouth.

The online enquiry pages e.g. gner.co.uk give routes which include Alnmouth, but the ATOC routing guide gives Edinburgh and Newcastle as routing points.

Is there an official easement on a web page somewhere that I could print out that would prove that changing at Alnmouth is legal ?

RailUK Forums

scrapy · 10 Feb 2010

Yes there is an easement

000065 Journeys from Chathill, Alnmouth, Acklington, Widdrington, Pegswood, Morpeth, Cramlington and Manors to Berwick-upon-Tweed and stations in Scotland may double back from Newcastle on tickets routed "Any Permitted". This easement applies in both directions.

yorkie · 10 Feb 2010

I think furryfeet only wants to double back to Alnmouth rather than Newcastle. This saves around £16.

Yes it is valid.

National Conditions of Carriage said:
13. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a through train;
(ii) trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled
passenger services; or
(iii) trains which take the routes shown in the National Routeing Guide
(details as to how you can obtain this information will be available
when you buy your ticket).

There is no need to consult the Routeing Guide, so no need to look at easements and no need to look at mapped routes, and no need to worry about avoiding double-backing.

If anyone says to change at Berwick, ask them to look up connections from there to Chathill. I'd be shocked if anyone would say such a thing, but if they do, then they'll soon back down!

furryfeet · 10 Feb 2010

many thanks for your prompt replies.
yes, I was thinking about doubling back only from Alnmouth - I did not know that the easement allowed Newcastle though !

paul1609 · 10 Feb 2010

According to Webtis there are 2 routes for this journey Route" by shortest direct route" which is £42 for an anytime single and is shown as changing at Alnmouth or "any permitted" at £59 which presumably allows the easement via Newcastle.

142094 · 10 Feb 2010

yorkie said:
if anyone would say such a thing, but if they do, then they'll soon back down!

I've seen a picture somewhere of a Tyne and Wear PTE liveried 144 at Berwick, guessing there used to be a Newcastle - Berwick local service once?

Yup, if anyone says change at Berwick they need shooting!

OwlMan · 10 Feb 2010

paul1609 said:
According to Webtis there are 2 routes for this journey Route" by shortest direct route" which is £42 for an anytime single and is shown as changing at Alnmouth or "any permitted" at £59 which presumably allows the easement via Newcastle.

Any permitted also allows travel via Carlisle

Peter

DaveNewcastle · 12 Feb 2010

I completely agree with the other replies - yes, it is valid to change at Alnmouth (though you might have a very long wait, as the Chathill service only runs at about 6am and 6pm! A trip into Barter Books in Alnwick's old railway station is a good way to pass the time!).

What I did want to add was that you can get some cheaper fares by splitting at Berwick. ie a Glasgow Central -> Berwick ticket and a separate Berwick -> Chathill ticket though both for travel on the same train through Berwick.

In fact the discounting of the Glasgow > Berwick fare was enough of a difference last year for a First Class advance ticket to come in 5p cheaper than Standard Class! Wow! 0.05p! When I travelled last week, that particular anomaly wasn't available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just checked again: Its now possible to SAVE £0.40 by travelling First Class from Glasgow > Berwick on certain services eg 8:50am from Glasgow on a Saturday (with a change at Edinburgh). Can't see this anomaly on any direct EC services now.

tbtc · 12 Feb 2010

142094 said:
I've seen a picture somewhere of a Tyne and Wear PTE liveried 144 at Berwick, guessing there used to be a Newcastle - Berwick local service once?

Yup, if anyone says change at Berwick they need shooting!

Yes, the Chathill service used to run to Berwick.

I've wondered in the past whether it'd be worth doing it for ORCATS reasons nowadays - even if nobody wanted to actually use the service north of Chathill Northern would still get a slice of the market

yorkie · 12 Feb 2010

tbtc said:
Yes, the Chathill service used to run to Berwick.

I've wondered in the past whether it'd be worth doing it for ORCATS reasons nowadays - even if nobody wanted to actually use the service north of Chathill Northern would still get a slice of the market

Which flow(s) would it be worth doing for ORCATS allocation reasons alone, given that it is overtaken?

142094 · 12 Feb 2010

Surely Northern would get s slice of Newcastle - Berwick, even if no-one was on the train. Plus also would get Alnmouth and Morpeth, has to be some sort of flow from those two to Berwick. Then in addition may create new flows from the other ECML stations to Berwick.

yorkie · 12 Feb 2010

142094 said:
Surely Northern would get s slice of Newcastle - Berwick, even if no-one was on the train. .

Why though? Everything I've read about ORCATS has said that overtaken trains don't gain any revenue. The only exceptions is when they provide a direct service, where it is quicker to change. The direct service still gains revenue on the basis that many passengers prefer direct trains. But for Newacastle-Berwick this service is overtaken by direct trains so will surely get no revenue for that flow. Is this wrong? Unfortunately the formulas are kept secret so I can only go by little bits of information that are released via journalists like Barry Doe.

142094 · 13 Feb 2010

Right, I'll take your word on it as I know you'll know more about it than me. I assumed that any flow would get part of the pot.

Taking the one of the York - Leeds early morning stoppers, this is overtaken at Church Fenton by a TPE 185. However a lot of people still use the Northern train as you are almost guaranteed a seat, so would Northern lose out on money in this case due to ORCATS?

glynn80 · 13 Feb 2010

142094 said:
Right, I'll take your word on it as I know you'll know more about it than me. I assumed that any flow would get part of the pot.

Taking the one of the York - Leeds early morning stoppers, this is overtaken at Church Fenton by a TPE 185. However a lot of people still use the Northern train as you are almost guaranteed a seat, so would Northern lose out on money in this case due to ORCATS?

I have given a brief overview of ORCATS before in previous topics (http://www.railforums.org.uk/showthread.php?p=323829), hope the following clears things up for you:

Under the Ticketing Settlement Agreement, there are two methods of allocating revenue between TOCs. The first is the ORCATS (Operational Research Computerised Allocation of Tickets to Services) model; however if the parties believe that ORCATS is not allocating revenues correctly the second is for the train operating companies themselves to agree the allocation method. There is a last-resort dispute resolution process in cases where companies cannot agree.

ORCATS is a behavioural model employing mathematical techniques to predict how passengers behave in their choice of train services for a journey. Having predicted how passengers choose between different trains, ORCATS then derives the allocations based on the mileage travelled on each of the services involved. Derived allocations are used as a basis for sharing revenue between TOCs. ORCATS considers the following factors to estimate the split of passengers between train services, i.e. the proportion of passengers choosing a particular train service. All factors were derived from extensive passenger and market research surveys:

* The demand for train travel by time of day and day of week. Demand profiles used by ORCATS show the split of day demand into 15-minute time bands. ORCATS uses separate demand profiles for weekdays, Saturday and Sunday travel.

* Train speed; this is measured by journey time.

* Number of interchanges; the number of times a passenger has to change trains to complete the journey.

* Waiting time; this is measured as the difference between the train start time and the ideal departure time which is taken as the mid-point of each 15-minute time band.

The model considers passenger preferences for speed, number of interchanges and waiting time. It also considers the interaction between the factors, for example, it considers the trade off between speed and waiting time. The model then applies these factors to the train timetable available to passengers between each origin and destination and derives passenger preferences for particular train services.

Revenue allocation does not correspond to loadings, and is purely timetable driven. Under ORCATS, revenue is always allocated to the fastest train, so even if a train is the second to leave the station, if it overtakes another, it receives the full allocation of revenue. ORCATS cannot take qualitative factors into account, for example, where passengers choose to take a slower train because it is perceived as better.

Furthermore ORCATS does not take account of capacity constraints. If a train is full or nearly full by the time it arrives at a station, ORCATS continues to allocate revenue to that particular service. Because the system is timetable driven, situations such as ORCATS raiding can occur, where extra trains are slotted in front of another operator’s and thus their revenue is reallocated.

142094 · 14 Feb 2010

Thank you for that very helpful info Glynn.

Routing Guide Query - Glasgow to Chathill

furryfeet

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scrapy

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yorkie

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furryfeet

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paul1609

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142094

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tbtc

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yorkie

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