Class 15X Future

Bevan Price · 7 Jun 2019

Chester1 said:
"Rare earth metals" are not actually that rare. The restriction on supply occurs due to the environmental issue processing them. Its hugely expensive to do it properly thats why China with its lower environmental standards has become the main supplier to the west.

Its certainly not an issue for battery powered trains. The cost of the rare earth metals for batteries will be dwarfed by the cost of the coach. The 230 battery powered train will have a range of 60 miles. A longer train will need more batteries but will also have more space for them. Back to the thread topic, its likely that most people sprinters stay in service until battery technology has matured and electrification has spread.

For anyone interested in the rarity of elements, this table may be of interest:
https://sciencenotes.org/abundance-of-elements-in-earths-crust-periodic-table-and-list/

The problem is that "rare" elements are usually present in mixtures, and it is the separation from other elements that can be difficult / expensive. Also, they are not spread widely around the earth - there tend to be localised deposits, some in countries which might not be "friendly".

RailUK Forums

realaledrinker · 8 Jun 2019

Musings from a daily commuter Mouldsworth - Chester at the end of the 1'30" trundle from MAN.

Refurbished 150s perfectly adequate and pleasant for a moderately loaded service. Happy to ride on these for another 10 years if needs be.

150s invariably run to time (granted Mo Farah and probs even Mo Salah would have a better point to point time)
156s invariably 5 mins late due to unsuitability to eject students at Greenbank and Knutsford
142s thank God now few and far between.

This line must be the least impacted by Northern's woes. I have not been delayed by more than 5 mins into Chester in 4 months using this service!

61653 HTAFC · 8 Jun 2019

Ken H said:
batteries use lots of rare metals
There is this about the fact the UK will need twice the current world production of cobalt
https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-n...ll-require-twice-the-world-s-supply-of-cobalt

Bevan Price said:
For anyone interested in the rarity of elements, this table may be of interest:
https://sciencenotes.org/abundance-of-elements-in-earths-crust-periodic-table-and-list/

The problem is that "rare" elements are usually present in mixtures, and it is the separation from other elements that can be difficult / expensive. Also, they are not spread widely around the earth - there tend to be localised deposits, some in countries which might not be "friendly".

The majority of Earth's cobalt is located in the "paradise" of The Democratic Republic of Congo, as are a number of other rare earth elements with applications in new technology. There's a reason China has invested heavily in Africa... :rolleyes:

bramling · 8 Jun 2019

LowLevel said:
It's desirable to have someone in each set but the reason it is mandatory at some TOCs I believe is that the trains in question do not have a pass com override for the driver to use which is standard on DOO and more modern guard operated trains. Consequently if someone pulls the passenger alarm the train will be brought to a stand immediately via an emergency brake application and can't move until it's reset. If your guard is in the wrong set this means they have to clamber along via the track to change sets which is time consuming and difficult to achieve in the wrong location - say if you ground to a halt across the station throat at Manchester Piccadilly.

That makes sense - thanks for the information. No doubt this would also cause a problem if the train was in a difficult location like a tunnel!

What happens on Northern where the run the occasional 3x150 combination (Buxton line springs to mind)?

LowLevel · 8 Jun 2019

bramling said:
That makes sense - thanks for the information. No doubt this would also cause a problem if the train was in a difficult location like a tunnel!

What happens on Northern where the run the occasional 3x150 combination (Buxton line springs to mind)?

I think the Buxtons usually run with anything more than 4 locked out. I'm not sure how they manage it otherwise.

cjmillsnun · 9 Jun 2019

Ken H said:
This is why carting hydrogen around is a bad idea
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/aqnQvzCaKEY/maxresdefault.jpg
(R101 airship exploding)

So a fabric airship is the reason you can’t use a reinforced pressurised container designed for the job. Right. Got it.

cjmillsnun · 9 Jun 2019

Killingworth said:
According to Hyundai's website the range of the electric Kona is up to 180 miles, a bit short of 300. There's a waiting list for one of them stretching into 2020 so it will be a long time before we see masses of electric cars going over the 600 miles that my car does on a tank.

There are 2 Kona variants

You forgot the 64kWh which does 279 miles. Do not that far short of 300 :rolleyes:

Killingworth · 9 Jun 2019

cjmillsnun said:
There are 2 Kona variants

You forgot the 64kWh which does 279 miles. Do not that far short of 300

I have visions of miles of cables trailing down terraced streets as residents charge the cars they can't park outside their own doors. Stopped at Scotch Corner recently. The hotel has 8 Tesla charging points. 1 was in use. I can manage on 2 or 3 five minute refuelling stops a month. As far as I can make out an electric vehicle might need 2 or 3 stops a day for a longer journey. It's going to be some time yet to get many to go electric.

An electric 150 type rail vehicle is different but the basics are similar.

ed1971 · 9 Jun 2019

Slightly off topic, I was reading in a computer magazine recently about laptop batteries. It said that battery technology has not advanced that much and reminded me of how short a life laptop batteries have. They have certainly caused me a lot of frustration.

I would not be very confident with an all electric car. It could put you in a dangerous situation, if for example the battery failed travelling over the Yorkshire Moors in the cold depths of winter. For now, I think an hybrid car would be a wiser choice.

With regards to railways, it would make sense to do more infill electrification, such as Wigan North Western to Lostock Junction and Kirkham to Blackpool South and go down the bi-mode route for new builds of units to make them future proof.

On the subject of electric trains, a correspondent in RAIL magazine recently pointed out that a Pendolino accelerating out of London Euston uses around as much electricity as consumed by 500 households.

Bletchleyite · 9 Jun 2019

ed1971 said:
I would not be very confident with an all electric car. It could put you in a dangerous situation, if for example the battery failed travelling over the Yorkshire Moors in the cold depths of winter.

Batteries don't just fail, they lose capacity over time. You're far more likely to break down in a petrol or diesel car.

In any car, it is prudent to carry clothing such that you could walk to the nearest place of assistance without ending up with hypothermia.

ed1971 · 9 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Batteries don't just fail, they lose capacity over time. You're far more likely to break down in a petrol or diesel car.

In any car, it is prudent to carry clothing such that you could walk to the nearest place of assistance without ending up with hypothermia.

Yes, but the nearest place of assistance could be miles away. I still would have more confidence in a hybrid car as an engine keeps the battery charged up when necessary.

Taunton · 9 Jun 2019

61653 HTAFC said:
The majority of Earth's cobalt is located in the "paradise" of The Democratic Republic of Congo, as are a number of other rare earth elements with applications in new technology. There's a reason China has invested heavily in Africa...

I think you will find it's not the majority, absolutely, but just the place where it can be got out at the cheapest possible rate, readily achieved by the landowners and environmental measures being ignored and the workforce being paid starvation wages, plus a periodic transfer of a few millions to the "boss". All such items are elsewhere as well if you are prepared to pay the going rates for extraction and processing.

Bletchleyite · 9 Jun 2019

ed1971 said:
Yes, but the nearest place of assistance could be miles away

Which means you need to carry suitable clothing.

This isn't just for electric cars, it's for ALL cars. Any car can break down, and because an electric car is much, much simpler it is far less likely to. Look at the difference in MTIN figures between EMUs and DMUs.

If you go and drive over the Yorkshire moors in January in a T-shirt and shorts and you break down, you may well die of hypothermia before help reaches you. This has nothing to do with the type of car.

hooverboy · 9 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Batteries don't just fail, they lose capacity over time. You're far more likely to break down in a petrol or diesel car.

In any car, it is prudent to carry clothing such that you could walk to the nearest place of assistance without ending up with hypothermia.

lithium batteries, while giving decent capacity, do have the drawback of not being at all good at sub zero temperatures.

in order to be of proper use in a rail scenario, they would need to find a derivative which can operate reliably in the field between -30 and +50c(that would be worst case scenario of absolutely brutal winters/toasty summers)

a spell at -20c during winter is not that uncommon in the highlands.

hwl · 9 Jun 2019

hooverboy said:
lithium batteries, while giving decent capacity, do have the drawback of not being at all good at sub zero temperatures.

in order to be of proper use in a rail scenario, they would need to find a derivative which can operate reliably in the field between -30 and +50c(that would be worst case scenario of absolutely brutal winters/toasty summers)

a spell at -20c during winter is not that uncommon in the highlands.

The solution for cold so far appears so limited battery heating which eats up stored energy.

cjmillsnun · 9 Jun 2019

Killingworth said:
I have visions of miles of cables trailing down terraced streets as residents charge the cars they can't park outside their own doors. Stopped at Scotch Corner recently. The hotel has 8 Tesla charging points. 1 was in use. I can manage on 2 or 3 five minute refuelling stops a month. As far as I can make out an electric vehicle might need 2 or 3 a day for a longer journey. It's going to be some time yet to get many to go electric.

An electric 150 type rail vehicle is different but the basics are similar.

As someone who drives an EV I’m not over worried. There are plenty more rapid points on the way.

People worry about 2 or 3 charging stops a day for a long journey but think about it. After 2 hours behind the wheel you should be taking a comfort break, a drink and a walk to stretch your legs. It keeps you alert. You charge whilst you do all that. You don’t stay in the car.

There are lamp post chargers being installed in Portsmouth and London to allow charging without trailing cables. If this is successful then this could be rolled out.

There are electric ferries that can charge up during turnaround times with multi megawatt chargers so they can be scaled to suit railway needs easily.

As far as battery degradation goes, my car can manage 180 miles in summer and 130-140 in winter. So yes there is noticeable degradation based on temperature but on a long journey only on the first charge as driving the car warms the battery up. Again I would envisage something similar on a train.

Lastly there are Tesla vehicles that have over 300k on their original batteries and still going strong (they are used as taxis)

The big issue is cost. EVs aren’t cheap to buy. They are incredible cheap to run but you have to do a lot of miles to be cost neutral. That cost is the batteries. The same will hold true for the railways.

Killingworth · 9 Jun 2019

I spotted this electric bus in Cologne. The driver thought it was good - fluent English. Said the charging had to be done at both ends of the route, turnaround at the city end here was not enough. This on quite a short and fairly level route.

Something like this, combined with bi-mode, may be necessary to get best use out of existing electrification before more is completed.

Bletchleyite · 9 Jun 2019

There's a few of that kind of concept on trial - route 7 in MK (my local route) for about the last 3-4 years has used inductive charging. It seems reliable enough, though they found they ordered one too few (because the layovers can't be used to make up time) so a diesel bus is always on there as well.

Only thing I don't like about it is that something in the driveline makes nasty high pitched noises (I have unusually good high pitch hearing for a middle aged adult, I can hear those anti-teenager mosquito things and it's a bit like that).

swt_passenger · 9 Jun 2019

realaledrinker said:
Musings from a daily commuter Mouldsworth - Chester at the end of the 1'30" trundle from MAN.

I know you actually meant 1h 30m above, but writing 1’30” would usually mean 1 min 30 secs...

Mitchell Hurd · 12 Jun 2019

According to the TfW wikipedia, one thing that the Class 150's will receive as well as USB sockets is AC. If 'AC' means air-conditioning then how will a 150 cope with added weight and the extra work from an engine with around 285hp?

Ideal though!

CosherB · 12 Jun 2019

Mitchell Hurd said:
According to the TfW wikipedia, one thing that the Class 150's will receive as well as USB sockets is AC. If 'AC' means air-conditioning then how will a 150 cope with added weight and the extra work from an engine with around 285hp?

Ideal though!

AC in this context is in effect 3-pin sockets.

Why would TfW require air con to be fitted to a fleet of trains that has opening windows and will be released from the franchise in a few years time?

anamyd · 12 Jun 2019

Yes, alternating current. Otherwise, it would've said "air conditioning"

Have added clarification on the TfW Rail Services Wikipedia article

fowler9 · 12 Jun 2019

It has kind of annoyed me seeing 150's being dumped in the North West. Get rid of the pacers and we get the new worst trains in the country. To be fair the North East doesn't get a great deal either.

anamyd · 12 Jun 2019

fowler9 said:
It has kind of annoyed me seeing 150's being dumped in the North West. Get rid of the pacers and we get the new worst trains in the country. To be fair the North East doesn't get a great deal either.

Some people think Sprinters are Pacers as well which is quite worrying as they'll be in shock when they find out they'll be in service for years longer

Chester1 · 13 Jun 2019

fowler9 said:
It has kind of annoyed me seeing 150's being dumped in the North West. Get rid of the pacers and we get the new worst trains in the country. To be fair the North East doesn't get a great deal either.

Its still a huge improvement. The likely replacement of 319s with extra 323s combined with a swapping of sprinters would help too. I think Northern should focus on getting rid of the units in the worst state and replacing 156s with 158s (only if in a good condition).

bramling · 13 Jun 2019

LowLevel said:
I think the Buxtons usually run with anything more than 4 locked out. I'm not sure how they manage it otherwise.

I could have got it wrong, however I’m pretty sure all three units were in service (they were definitely all released when I got on at Buxton, but I can’t say if one was locked out between then and departure time). Presumably an assisting conductor could ride in the middle unit - although it was a strange time of day for it being late morning when the train was pretty lightly loaded.

bramling · 13 Jun 2019

Chester1 said:
Its still a huge improvement. The likely replacement of 319s with extra 323s combined with a swapping of sprinters would help too. I think Northern should focus on getting rid of the units in the worst state and replacing 156s with 158s (only if in a good condition).

150s could quite easily provide a decent travelling experience subject to a decent refurbishment. The FNW refurb was pretty nice IMO, and the GWR 150/2s are top notch, the only snag being the seating capacity is fairly low.

Paul_10 · 14 Jun 2019

I don't see nothing wrong with Northern refurbished 150s apart from the cramped 2+3 layout they have. I do get the feeling the 150s will be replaced in the next franchise so possibly only 10 more years left in service. The GWR and ATW 150s also look good too me with 2+2 seating so it is down to quality really.

anamyd · 14 Jun 2019

Paul_10 said:
I don't see nothing wrong with Northern refurbished 150s apart from the cramped 2+3 layout they have. I do get the feeling the 150s will be replaced in the next franchise so possibly only 10 more years left in service. The GWR and ATW 150s also look good too me with 2+2 seating so it is down to quality really.

ATW ceased operating train services 8 months ago today. I assume you're referring to TfW's 150s

Paul_10 · 14 Jun 2019

anamyd said:
ATW ceased operating train services 8 months ago today. I assume you're referring to TfW's 150s

Yep, force of habit!

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