Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Definitely, I'd just love the attention-seeking idiot on Facebook to show the context.
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Video Shows SouthEastern Ticket Office Staff Assaulting Person
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Definitely, I'd just love the attention-seeking idiot on Facebook to show the context.
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Spartacus
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Something certainly amiss. Aside from the obvious question of why you might film such an originally simple exchange, in one account he stated that he requested a ticket to London while asking for the first aid kit, but in the other says he refused to leave because he already had a valid ticket 
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Most probably it's a case of two wrongs not making a right.
If the rumour I heard about what the bloke doing the filming had done to get the booking office guy to react like that is true, then it puts a very different spin on all of this. As usual though they just show the reaction. Its a sad society we live in.
king_walnut
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Why be so secretive?
Why is he an attention seeking idiot? Can't uninvent camera phones and social media. Whatever the rights and wrongs of it all it's gonna be difficult for the staff member to justify his actions.
Come on then, spill the beans!
WelshBluebird
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The staff member claimed there wasn't one.
If there was one and the staff member lied, well that says a fair bit IMO.
Also the H&S execute do recommend that if you have members of the public on your workplace site then you also include them in your First Aid planning and provide first aid tho those too.
I will repeat, whatever happened, the staff member should not be reacting like that. Full stop. There is no "different spin" on it. If you are able to react like that (when you have the option of just shutting up shop (putting the shutters down and refusing to interact with anyone until the police arrive if it is that serious) then you should simply not be working in a public customer facing role. I have worked with the public in a couple of jobs, if I reacted like that, whatever the provocation, I would have been fired.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That's quite interesting. A few months ago I was going to the gym and on the way in I went in my bag to get my wristband out and caught my razor (which I'd taken to have a shave after the shower) and lacerated the end of my finger with it. I went up to the desk and asked for a plaster, which I was given, but I didn't think I was particularly entitled to it, and had more expected to be denied entry (due to the blood posing a health risk) and asked to go over to the adjacent shopping centre to purchase one and sort it out myself first.
(Of course, I'd not have expected an assault nor swearing had I got "funny" about it, though I might have ended up escorted out by a security guard and my membership terminated)
I completely agree. He should have closed the window (making him completely safe from whatever was going on outside) and called for the BTP, and stayed inside with the window closed until they arrived (even if they'd taken an hour he'd still have been safe for that hour). No other conduct was acceptable.
The person doing the filming may have been acting unacceptably, but the way to deal with that is as above, not to get angry nor to commit an assault.
matt_world2004
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My suspcion is the situation already started to escalate when he began filmingSomething certainly amiss. Aside from the obvious question of why you might film such an originally simple exchange, in one account he stated that he requested a ticket to London while asking for the first aid kit, but in the other says he refused to leave because he already had a valid ticket
There’s nothing in legislation to state that the staff member has to administer first aid. He wouldn’t be expected to if he’s not a first aider anyway. At best he could maybe throw him a plaster through, which would be the right thing to do if he has a kit. I see what you’re saying, but I think there is more to this than just the first aid issue.
WelshBluebird
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They don't mandate it as they do for employees, but they certainly do recommend it.
As the first aider at my workplace, if say a delivery driver turned up and during the time he was on our grounds hurt himself or otherwise needed assistance I'd be more than happy to help!
Just imagine the outrage if say an elderly person was refused help after falling at a supermarket, or even at a major train station!
WelshBluebird
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There is nothing that says he has to or is expected to (and indeed from at least what was recorded, there was nothing that the member of the public said that ask that, all that was asked is do they have a first aid kit, not "will you give me first aid").
However HSE do specifically say that they recommend making provision for the general public if they are at your workplace.
As for him saying they didn't have a first aid kit, the best case is that he lied, the worst case is that they don't have one and that is a massive H&S breach.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Except he wasn't injured on railway premises, he was injured on the road.
He (like I did) probably ended up in that awkward niche of having what looks like a bad injury due to the amount of blood but really isn't that bad. Had he walked in with his arm hanging off I'm sure even the most miserable jobsworth would have called an ambulance for him.
How big is the station in question? I’m not familiar with it. It’s more of a slight misdemeanour than a massive H&S breach to be fair. Certain stations are unmanned so won’t have this provision anyway, and although safety should always be taken seriously, nobody is going to die because there is no first aid kit (unless it’s a very comprehensive kit).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
A first aid kit is required because the staff are there - it's mainly for their benefit, not for that of passengers.
I think it's fairly small suburban-style - 2 platforms, one member of staff in the ticket office.
I see, thanks for clarifying.
That’s how I understood it regarding first aid kits too.
WelshBluebird
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Much of a muchness really. If someone presented themselves at my office with an injury, I would assist them (and would be expected to assist by everyone else in my organisation as the First Aider here).
That assistance may be handing them the first aid kit (or things from it), saying that I can't help but directing them to somewhere that can help, phoning the emergency services if applicable etc etc.
Whilst I cannot tell you what the law is when it comes to injuries sustained off the workplace site, certainly the view in terms of those of us who are First Aiders is that you should help someone regardless of situation as long that isn't a danger to yourself (and if they are a danger to yourself, then the last thing you should do is assault them, and I certainly wouldn't lie to them either!).
It is law that an employer must make First Aid provisions for its employees. That is usually taken to mean provide a First Aid kit and if there are more than a few employees or it is a high risk site, appoint specific people who are trained to deal with anything that comes up. Again - that is law.
Where members of the public are also on the site then it is recommended that First Aid provision is made for those too. I would expect that the HSE would look pretty dimly on an employer whose main business involves having the public on their premises but then refuses to provide any First Aid provision for them.
As for "nobody is going to die because there is no first aid kit" - No. Just no. First Aid kits can absolutely be used to save lives. From things like stemming serious wounds to enabling CPR (thanks to pocket masks and other tools that are recommended to be in one), to helping combat hypothermia etc etc. There is a reason why places legally have to have First Aid provision on site. That reason is precisely because it saves lives and reduces the chances of minor injuries ended up as serious ones.
So as I said - if there was a first aid kit then the member of staff acted against the recommendations of HSE (but not illegally) by refusing to help (and anyone just as myself is free to judge someone who not only won't help when they can, but then lies about it too), but if he was not lying and there was not a First Aid kit, then South Eastern are massively breaking the law by not providing First Aid provision at the workplace.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I suspect (assuming the classic basic suburban station) he reacted in the way he would had he been asked for use of the toilet if he believed it was for staff use only - it would have just been "there isn't one, sorry", not "I've got one in here but I'm not allowed to let you use it" which is just rubbing salt into the wound, as it were.
We are going off on a tangent here, but to add to my last comment; yes certain kits have pocket masks in and items to stem bleeding, but most at best has bandages, which are intended for much more minor injuries. You don’t need a pocket mask to administer CPR and is somebody is bleeding to the extent that their life is at risk then you’re better off using your belt as a tourniquet or applying pressure if you’re trained to do so and the bleed requires it. They have gloves in though, and gloves are handy.
I’m not trying to be awkward, but we will just have to agree to disagree that a lack of a First Aid kit is a massive breach of H&S.
WelshBluebird
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I do apologise for getting so worked up by this, but as someone who is a First Aider and who has been involved in similar things throughout my life, I am always amazed when someone could help but doesn't. And even more amazed by people who have such lax attitudes to H&S legislation.
I am just going to quote HSE on a few things.
Do I need to say more?
Not having a first aid kit at a workplace IS a massive breach of H&S and it is likely if anything was to happen then the company would get prosecuted by HSE for it.
I think you are probably correct, but:
I am just going to quote HSE on a few things.
Do I need to say more?
Not having a first aid kit at a workplace IS a massive breach of H&S and it is likely if anything was to happen then the company would get prosecuted by HSE for it.
I think you are probably correct, but:
- There are ways of saying that without lying or "rubbing salt in the wound" (e.g. "We don't have one that is available for passenger use").
- A First Aid Kit is a little different to toilets in that using staff toilets would probably require access to a normally not public part of the station.
- I still heavily judge someone who can help someone with a First Aid need but won't.
Failure to provide First Aid could indeed result in death. First Aid. Not necessarily a first aid kit. Administering CPR can be first aid, yet you don’t need a first aid kit to do it.
I understand what you’re saying, without a shadow of doubt, but my point was a first aid kit probably won’t save your life (not in the same way an AED would anyway). I was linking that, with the “massive breach” part. I don’t doubt there’s a requirement to provide equipment for staff being taken ill etc.
If someone isn't trained in first aid they could make the casualty worse. I once saw a do-gooder remove the helmet of an unconscious motorbike crash victim while I was on the phone to 999. I'm sure their intentions were good but their actions were potentially very dangerous.
Regarding the rumour I heard, I didn't want to say what it was on here because it might not be true and it wouldn't be fair to suggest the guy had done it if he hadn't.
True, and not good for the casualty. However, it’s worth noting one is covered in law by the “Good Samaritan Act” should they be offering basic life support etc (may be touch and go with the situation you describe if the casualty was conscious however...). I say this because a lot of untrained people are reluctant to get involved through fear of repercussions should the patient either die, or survive but have some form of injury as a result of the life support (such as broken ribs or spinal damage after removing a motorcycle helmet to give CPR).
Unless it's changed again , I was taught in 2009 that you do remove the helmet. You rock it gently forward and backward , not in a twisting sideways motion , in case you need to stop them choking on their tongue.
WelshBluebird
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As I said, if you don't have a first aid kit at your place of work then the HSE will look VERY dimly on that and you will probably be prosecuted. That is what I meant by "massive breach". It is required as a bare minimum, even for low risk workplaces with few staff.
I was counting those kind of thing in the "can" really. If you don't know what you are doing, then yes, think before you do anything. But in reality most of the time, having someone help is better than nobody helping (which is why the TV ads with the simplified no breaths CPR were brought out - anything is often better than nothing, even if it isn't as good as what a trained person could do).
Also worth noting that one thing you learn if you do First Aid training is that a lot of the usual things that people think they know (e.g. the don't remove helmets or don't move someone if they may have a spinal injury) are pretty easily overruled. In those specific examples, if it is clear the person isn't breathing for example (or it isn't clear they are breathing) then removing the helmet may well be justified regardless of any other consequences (as without them breathing they will die anyway), and similarly for cases where you may not want to move someone, if that person is in a position of danger then you move them, again regardless of consequence (of course you try to do it in the best way possible, but if it is just yourself then you don't have many options).
You can use the ‘jaw-thrust’ technique. But unless the patient is unconscious or their airwave compromised, it’s not recommended unless you know what you’re doing.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Definitely, and any professional who reacts like that is going to get in touch with their inner P45.
Indeed, and you have to look at the wider implications for SET too. Even if it was an isolated incident, we all know how certain newspapers like to tar the industry...
Seriously? This is clearly very much an isolated incident, most SET staff do an excellent job.
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