TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding?

Kite159 · 12 Jun 2019

iain-j said:
TPE already do a similar thing with Edinburgh Waverley - Manchester Airport service, where in none of the departure boards in the Waverley or the on-board announcements on the train itself list it as stopping at Haymarket with Lockerbie being the first announced stop. For the return service none of the boards or announcements at Haymarket make any mention of it stopping there, except for a rare occasion where a Haymarket - North Berwick service was now starting at Edinburgh Waverley and that passengers should get on the TPE that was arriving so they could get through to Waverley.

Although at Haymarket there is nobody stopping you boarding, as the services from Queen Street via Falkirk High are also "Set down" only at Haymarket. Haymarket is odd in trains which terminate at Edinburgh go when ready rather than booked times so you get the case of trains leaving 3/4 minute early

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LittleAH · 12 Jun 2019

Greybeard33 said:
The biggest problem with enforcing the restrictions will not be at Bolton but on Piccadilly P14 in the evening peak (xx26 departures). Amidst all the chaos of overcrowding, red lines, "shouters" and Scotland passengers with suitcases trying to get to their reserved seats.

It will not be feasible to try to get the Bolton passengers to wait in the lounge, because a Northern service to Blackpool via Bolton is scheduled into P14 straight after the TPE.

Easy. Don't have the Bolton pick up/set down calls in the peak. Problem solved.

Kite159 · 12 Jun 2019

LittleAH said:
Easy. Don't have the Bolton pick up/set down calls in the peak. Problem solved.

Better idea is not to have the trains calling at Bolton in the direction of the peak flow. Any genuine passenger from Bolton wanting Preston & beyond will need to change at Preston.

Accura · 12 Jun 2019

Apologies if it has already been mentioned, but wouldn't it be better to keep the Manchester - Scotland express routes running via the Chat Moss line? Is the demand for Bolton > Scotland (and vice versa) such that changing at Preston would be too much hassle? Running those trains via Chat Moss seems to eliminate the problem of local commuters (at least until you get to Preston) swarming intercity services, as well as creating more capacity on the Manchester - Preston line for slows to call at the much higher number of intermediate stations.

sheff1 · 12 Jun 2019

LittleAH said:
Easy. Don't have the Bolton pick up/set down calls in the peak. Problem solved.

From the OP "Later this summer, we are planning to commence stopping our Anglo-Scottish services at Bolton during off-peak hours"

Bletchleyite · 12 Jun 2019

Arctic Troll said:
Then there's your answer as to why restrictions don't work.

"Oh you're a commuter, so you have to get the stopper to somewhere you don't want to go" isn't quite the advertising slogan I'd go for.

They can take the Blackpool service which does go where they want to go. There aren't many stops between Bolton and Deansgate anyhow.

Fawkes Cat · 12 Jun 2019

Howardh said:
So how do you tell me at Manchester Airport not to board that train which is going to my destination (Bolton)?

We don't. Because there will be almost nothing at the airport to tell you that the train goes to Bolton. The screens won't show a stop between Piccadilly and Preston: the online journey planners won't show it as a journey to Bolton: a printed timetable will show it calling, but marked 'u' for pickup. So the typical, non-railway-savvy customer will never find out that it is physically possible to get the train to Bolton while the knowledgeable traveller who knows about paper timetables will have to wilfully ignore the 'pickup only' restriction in the paper timetable that revealed the existence of the Bolton stop.

sheff1 · 12 Jun 2019

Accura said:
Apologies if it has already been mentioned, but wouldn't it be better to keep the Manchester - Scotland express routes running via the Chat Moss line? Is the demand for Bolton > Scotland (and vice versa) such that changing at Preston would be too much hassle?

Prior to the work to electrify the line, the Scotland services had called at Bolton. When the trains were diverted due to the works my recollection is that the Bolton passengers and bigwigs were 'promised' that the calls would be reinstated once the work was complete.

Running non-stop Manchester - Preston (via whichever route) is certainly better for long distance passengers.

I don't know what the Bolton-Scotland passenger numbers are but, without doubt, they will be far lower than the flow from Manchester and Manchester Airport. Whatever the Bolton numbers, they have got used to not having a direct train over the last few years. If it hadn't been from the 'promise' I doubt whether anyone would be looking seriously at TPE serving Bolton again.

Bletchleyite · 12 Jun 2019

sheff1 said:
Prior to the work to electrify the line, the Scotland services had historically called at Bolton. When the trains were diverted due to the works my recollection is that the Bolton passengers and bigwigs were 'promised' that the calls would be reinstated once the work was complete.

And the only reason they haven't is the overcrowding issue. It's a minor inconvenience for passengers to Bolton to have to use one of the other 3tph from Piccadilly, or 1tph from the Airport (or change at Piccadilly), as compared to a passenger failing to get to Scotland because they can't get on.

geoffk · 12 Jun 2019

Fawkes Cat said:
We don't. Because there will be almost nothing at the airport to tell you that the train goes to Bolton. The screens won't show a stop between Piccadilly and Preston: the online journey planners won't show it as a journey to Bolton: a printed timetable will show it calling, but marked 'u' for pickup.

So will the screens at the Airport show first stop Preston? If they show Piccadilly then you'll still get local passengers getting on.

Bletchleyite · 12 Jun 2019

geoffk said:
So will the screens at the Airport show first stop Preston? If they show Piccadilly then you'll still get local passengers getting on.

There isn't an overcrowding issue between the Airport and Piccadilly, quite the opposite as discussed extensively on other threads. So as long as they get off again, that's fine.

sheff1 · 12 Jun 2019

geoffk said:
So will the screens at the Airport show first stop Preston? If they show Piccadilly then you'll still get local passengers getting on.

Which isn't a problem. There is more than enough room to accommodate Airport - Scotland and Airport - Piccadilly passengers on the trains. The overcrowding is from Piccadilly.

muz379 · 12 Jun 2019

td97 said:
So service distruption. Maybe the long distance passengers can cope with 20 minutes of Bolton passengers on their service. There seems to be a notion that TPE Scottish/Cumbrian passengers have an exclusive entitlement to a standee-free and commuter-free service for the final 20 minutes into/out of Manchester.

I suspect that restricting passengers from Bolton from using the service is more to do with dwell times and ease of diversion than any notions of passenger comfort .

Howardh said:
So how do you tell me at Manchester Airport not to board that train which is going to my destination (Bolton)? Also, if it gets conveniently diverted via Wigan, if pax for Bolton ARE allowed on at MIA, what do they do when it gets diverted?

I guess we will have to wait and see what if any measures are put in place at MIA , MAN and MCO to restrict passengers for Bolton , although as it will be a pick up only it shouldn't be listed as a stop on the platform PIS .

If the train does get diverted via Wigan possibly running from Manchester to Preston non stop then you will end up at Preston , with no recourse against TPE for any compensation and having to pay your own way back from Preston . In fact if the guard to Preston was being diligent they should sell you a ticket to Preston as well .

philthetube · 13 Jun 2019

Howardh said:
What's the situation with long-distance trains going to/coming from Euston stopping at Watford to drop off/pick up only?

Never seen it abused at Watford, presumably because of enforcement.

Bletchleyite · 13 Jun 2019

philthetube said:
Never seen it abused at Watford, presumably because of enforcement.

It's only 1tph anyway, and the LNR non-stop service is barely much slower.

Boysteve · 14 Jun 2019

Do/Did XC enforce the Wakefield pick up only on peak afternoon trains from Leeds? I always though this was a bit daft as a customer travelling from Edinburgh or Newcastle to Wakefield officially had to change and leave a train that was going to stop at their destination!

matacaster · 14 Jun 2019

Announcements
that passengers boarding will receive a penalty fare for doing so?

Bletchleyite · 14 Jun 2019

matacaster said:
Announcements
that passengers boarding will receive a penalty fare for doing so?

I'm not sure the PF rules allow for a PF to be issued when boarding a train going from Manchester to Bolton using a ticket from Manchester to Bolton. A prosecution would probably be laughed out, too. If you want to do that, you need to occasionally drop the Bolton stop and catch them out that way.

neilmc · 14 Jun 2019

How about when a train stops at any intermediate station you can both board AND alight like passengers would reasonably expect to do? Manchester-Bolton is a fairly short stretch of what is a very long journey overall, if it's busy for a time it's busy. Passengers rightly get cross when they see a train stopping at the station they require and are told they can't board/alight there. Deliberately diverting trains occasionally for no reason other than to inconvenience people and "teach them a lesson" is appalling customer service but it's the kind of thing I've come to expect from both the rail industry and its advocates here. You could reproduce this silliness all over - Manchester - Leeds trains with pu/sd restrictions at Huddersfield, Birmingham trains with restrictions at Stoke, etc, etc

Bletchleyite · 14 Jun 2019

neilmc said:
How about when a train stops at any intermediate station you can both board AND alight like passengers would reasonably expect to do? Manchester-Bolton is a fairly short stretch of what is a very long journey overall, if it's busy for a time it's busy. Passengers rightly get cross when they see a train stopping at the station they require and are told they can't board/alight there.

Not half as cross as they get if they can't board with their Advance to Scotland because some commuter to Bolton can't be bothered waiting 10 minutes for a commuter train.

Fawkes Cat · 14 Jun 2019

Is it worth pointing out that what's being suggested for Bolton has worked perfectly well in Watford and Stratford (and I think elsewhere) for many years?

It's not a new idea. If it works elsewhere, it should work in Bolton.

Greybeard33 · 14 Jun 2019

If TPE intends to stop trains at Bolton only "during off peak hours", as stated in the Bolton News story, I do not see the need for the pickup restriction on southbound services. I was on the platform at Bolton yesterday lunchtime when a 350 from Edinburgh crawled through without stopping. There appeared to be more than enough empty seats for the handful of people who were waiting for the following Northern service to Alderley Edge.

The 397s will increase capacity, and people will wait for a Northern service anyway if they are more concerned about getting a seat (or a group of seats together) than about arrival time.

Off peak it is a far cry from hordes of commuters piling on.

Bletchleyite · 14 Jun 2019

I think the northbound "u" is far more important to be honest, as crowding it out in that case could mean people left behind and excessive dwell times through Castlefield with the end doors.

David M · 14 Jun 2019

Someone earlier mentioned a similar restriction between Haymarket and Edinburgh Waverley. As someone who occasionally gets a train from Haymarket to Waverley, I wasn't aware of this but it is incredibly difficult to figure out what platform the next train to Waverley will stop at - presumably for this reason. I can understand it applying Bolton to Manchester but struggle to see any sense in it applying in Edinburgh. A significant number of passengers get off at Haymarket en-route to Waverley and on at Haymarket in the opposite direction.
Does it apply and, if so, why?
Why can't a simple sign be placed in Haymarket saying next train to Waverley is from platform x as they do at some London area stations (not to Waverley but to the London terminal)?

greyman42 · 14 Jun 2019

David M said:
Someone earlier mentioned a similar restriction between Haymarket and Edinburgh Waverley.

Why do they have the restriction, for journeys into Waverley, in the first place on such a short journey?

mark-h · 14 Jun 2019

Haymarket to Waverley is a lot shorter than Manchester to Bolton. All services between Haymarket and Waverley take roughly the same time so there is no incentive to take a fast service (the arrival platform in Waverley would make a difference to the time it takes to leave the station, but not normally enough to make it worth taking the next train).

I would expect that the number of passengers travelling between Waverley and Haymarket are insignificant to the number travelling West/North from Haymarket. I would expect most passengers taking the train between Waverley and Haymarket to be connecting to/from a service arriving into Waverley from the South- there will be very few passengers only travelling between the two stations.

jonnyfan · 14 Jun 2019

The simplest solution would be the solution that is used for many other services across the country. At Manchester Airport, Piccadilly and Oxford Road the platform PIS would not show Bolton as a stop on the service and the PIS on the train would not mention Bolton when heading from Manchester. At Bolton, the service heading to Manchester would not be advertised - when the service is at the platform the PIS can display to not board this service as tickets from Bolton are not valid, backed up with an announcement. That would stop the majority of customers from boarding. Why not path it into platform 4 on the way to Manchester, even less likely to get anyone boarding!

edwin_m · 14 Jun 2019

jonnyfan said:
The simplest solution would be the solution that is used for many other services across the country. At Manchester Airport, Piccadilly and Oxford Road the platform PIS would not show Bolton as a stop on the service and the PIS on the train would not mention Bolton when heading from Manchester. At Bolton, the service heading to Manchester would not be advertised - when the service is at the platform the PIS can display to not board this service as tickets from Bolton are not valid, backed up with an announcement. That would stop the majority of customers from boarding. Why not path it into platform 4 on the way to Manchester, even less likely to get anyone boarding!

Might have to back it up with the occasional RPI swoop where anyone with a Bolton ticket would be followed up with the maximum vigour and publicity.

Antman · 14 Jun 2019

After the utter misery Bolton passengers have had, this is another kick in the teeth.

AndrewE · 14 Jun 2019

Justapunter said:
After the utter misery Bolton passengers have had, this is another kick in the teeth.

It has been pointed out several times that there are lots more trains between Bolton and Manchester and vv. Not being allowed onto the one an hour from the airport which risks leaving passengers for the far NW and Scotland behind isn't a big loss, especially as there is the through service to Blackpool each hour.
I agree that the timetabling and ticketing should be organised to allow Bolton to Scotland and vv travel though.

TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding?

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