Sleepy
Established Member
Given the huge outcry last time Night Riveria scrapping was on the cards and GWR adding more coaches recently to meet demand don't think this will happen.
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Caledonian Sleeper
- Thread starter Essexman
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Given the huge outcry last time Night Riveria scrapping was on the cards and GWR adding more coaches recently to meet demand don't think this will happen.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The question is what you replace it with. Could a pair of 80x be converted perhaps?
Mainliner
Member
Nothing bonkers at all about eschewing the CS, when people have appointments to meet. Only today someone tweeted CS saying that they will be flying in future because CS had become too unreliable and pricey.
I’m a fan of the old sleeper, but there’s no way I’d risk the new one for business use at present. Arrive at a meeting with little or no sleep, after a long bus ride? Er, no thanks!
Nope. One way London to Edinburgh last flight on Sunday still available for £55, or first thing Monday for £48.
As mentioned upthread, the sleeper is irrelevant to the airlines; it is a minute part of the London - Scotland market, and generally very different market segments.
nlogax
Established Member
As things with the CS currently stand if you need to be at the opposite end of the UK from where you live first thing in the morning and time is of a premium, you'd be bonkers not to consider flying instead. I'm certainly pondering it for next week.
woodhouse122
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A peice in the record about the lack of staff https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/dinner-luxury-caledonian-sleeper-train-16516839 (altough tunnocks teacakes and caramel wafers do sound a better choice than Haggis and nips in my opinion 
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47271
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I've heard a few stories of 'self catering' in the Highlander lounges, or at least when Scotrail was organised enough to tell passengers that they need to nip out ahead of departure.A peice in the record about the lack of staff https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/dinner-luxury-caledonian-sleeper-train-16516839 (altough tunnocks teacakes and caramel wafers do sound a better choice than Haggis and nips in my opinion
There's quite a well known tale of two regulars running to M&S at Euston at 8pm and buying generous supplies of booze and food. Disappointed tourists soon turned into happy travellers when they were offered almost unlimited topups and more mini pork pies than they knew what to do with, courtesy of the genuinely nice 'Scottish people' at the next table. The lack of staff also meant that several dogs were wandering around in the midst of it all.
Happy days and new friends made on a rough and ready service more like a country pub, but sadly nowadays not at £300 a go, and that's the terrible corner that CS have painted themselves into now.
diffident
Member
A peice in the record about the lack of staff https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/local-news/dinner-luxury-caledonian-sleeper-train-16516839 (altough tunnocks teacakes and caramel wafers do sound a better choice than Haggis and nips in my opinion
The reputation of the service is being degraded more and more as each day passes. There's only so much negativity the service can take before it becomes fatally wounded, surely.
gingerheid
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Well, they might lose the (mythical?) foreign tourist willing to pay top dollar for a hotel on wheels, and they certainly won't be using the publicity to grow the demand as they might have been hoping to.
But people like me will certainly be hanging around... it's still the only way to travel.
It does annoy me of course that they now have a small and specialist fleet with no spare capacity to deal with problems (what happens if, heaven forbid, they lose most of a set in an accident?). Obviously it isn't the 80s and there aren't sleeper routes all over the country (and there can't be, and we wouldn't want there to be because a lot of them have been replaced by far superior daytime services...). But the CS and GWR sleeper fleets ought to have been replaced with the same thing at the same time, and there ought to have been a spare set.
But people like me will certainly be hanging around... it's still the only way to travel.
It does annoy me of course that they now have a small and specialist fleet with no spare capacity to deal with problems (what happens if, heaven forbid, they lose most of a set in an accident?). Obviously it isn't the 80s and there aren't sleeper routes all over the country (and there can't be, and we wouldn't want there to be because a lot of them have been replaced by far superior daytime services...). But the CS and GWR sleeper fleets ought to have been replaced with the same thing at the same time, and there ought to have been a spare set.
MrEd
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I sincerely do hope that the service will continue, as I and many other regulars rely on it as an efficient way of travelling between London and Scotland. As it is by far the most convenient way of getting from my current home in Cambridgeshire to Fort William, I certainly will continue to use CS for the foreseeable future. However, it is obvious that the current situation is entirely unsatisfactory and cannot continue. Both Serco and the Scottish Government need a serious reality check, and need to know that the business model is both unsuitable and unachievable, and that both the reliability of the service and customer care at times of severe disruption has to improve, otherwise the high fares and marketing are entirely indefensible. I hope they’re taking these issues seriously, particularly given the threat of strike action (from the poor staff who have to deal constantly with operational issues and customer complaints) in the middle of the tourist season (I don’t know what the latest is on that but it may well remain a possibility). Maybe, as at Christmas 2015, a strike will provide the reality check that they need (although I sincerely hope, from a customer’s perspective, that strike action will not be necessary).
Mainliner
Member
Not really, if (according to many reports) it hasn’t been properly designed and built for the intended purpose. ‘Rough ride’ , ‘poor sound insulation’ and ‘hard seats’ in the seated coaches aren’t what is needed for sleeper trains, and won’t bring the repeat business that is needed, even if all the faulty doors, toilets, shower water heating, etc are eventually fixed.
mralexn
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Just looking on twitter and there seems to be some controversy regarding the use of LNER services tomorrow morning for affected passengers. Caledonian Sleeper are saying that passengers can travel on the first two services to King's Cross from Edinburgh tomorrow morning, however LNER are saying this is not the case, and are asking Calsleeper to take that info of their website.
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gingerheid
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I've travelled on both, so I'm speaking from first hand experience and my own belief rather than something hypothetical. I wish they were better off course, but even so.
With regard to the potential closure in October, NR have just applied for temporary planning permission for a work site next to the horseshoe viaduct betwee tyndrum and bridge of orchy. This is the location of the work requiring the line closure, but doesn't of course say when it will take place.
There is every possibility that a lot of the foreign custom will be lost pretty damn quick. Most of these tourists will be travelling on itineraries issued by travel agents/companies.
Once the complaints start shipping in when the passengers get back home this will deter the agents from booking/promoting the product.
Also even with the refunds being issued the agents will still expect their commission so a double dunt for CS.
To some of these passengers this will be their holiday of a lifetime and they will be pretty miffed.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are spare vehicles, though, aren't there? I forget how many, though.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The seated coach is an exception to the "high quality product" thing. People use it because it's cheap and less rubbish than a road coach (yes, I know). It is unlikely to put them off any more than Ryanair's infinite rubbishness puts many people on a budget off using them.
I would be interested to know if the Night Riviera switching from Mk3 FOs to 2+2 seated coaches with no recline (which was done to provide more seats for morning commuters in Cornwall - oh for CS taking their domestic service commitments as seriously
) made all that much difference to their passenger numbers in the seated coach. I bet it didn't.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That screenshot doesn't give any evidence of LNER asking them to take it off their website, only an anecdote about what some staff may have said? It seems there are some staff at Waverley who are misinformed, perhaps?
jagardner1984
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I don’t really understand why ticket “acceptance” is a thing. Surely a CS customer should simply arrive at the Waverley ticket office with the CS ticket, declare the CS service was cancelled (a brief fact check done by staff if needed) and be issued with an LNER ticket, seat reservation and profuse apologies (and a warning about crowded service / offers of an instant cash refund / offers of a later less crowded service).
The emphasis in times of delay is totally wrong. “Here’s our delay repay form” - no actually, you’ve messed up my night (/not got me there at all), the vast majority of customers book directly with them. You should have the refund issued before people get off the train automatically in severe disruption, or within a couple of hours if it’s marginal. Delay Repay should be only for those with complex booking arrangements.
LNER should do right by the customer stood in front of them, and CS should do right by LNER having sorted out their mess (again).
Whatever arguments are to be had about “acceptance” should be had behind closed doors between them, or Virgin, or Whoever. It’s simply not the customers concern that UK rail (and research suggests the attempts by successive governments to see the exciting brands as distinct rather than one overall railway continue to dismally fail) has once again let them down.
The emphasis in times of delay is totally wrong. “Here’s our delay repay form” - no actually, you’ve messed up my night (/not got me there at all), the vast majority of customers book directly with them. You should have the refund issued before people get off the train automatically in severe disruption, or within a couple of hours if it’s marginal. Delay Repay should be only for those with complex booking arrangements.
LNER should do right by the customer stood in front of them, and CS should do right by LNER having sorted out their mess (again).
Whatever arguments are to be had about “acceptance” should be had behind closed doors between them, or Virgin, or Whoever. It’s simply not the customers concern that UK rail (and research suggests the attempts by successive governments to see the exciting brands as distinct rather than one overall railway continue to dismally fail) has once again let them down.
You can issue refunds as rapidly as you like, but the vast majority of customers will have paid electronically (ie. credit or debit card) so even if it is issued before they set foot off the train the refund will still take several working days to clear back into their bank. There is nothing CS, or any other retailer, can do about that, it is how it is. And no, the rules of the card providers and banks don't allow it to be done any other way.
Ticket acceptance, alternative travel, or a night in a hotel - plus Delay Repay - is a solution that works for most people most of the time. Moreover, you know that's what the deal is when you buy a ticket (it's not as though operator's don't advertise it, there's massive website banners and huge posters all over stations about delay repay).
jagardner1984
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I agree with you, but the point is about showing intent in my view. If your hosts can say as customers leave “our sincere apologies, your refund has been processed”, to me that’s a much better final impression to give customers than either handing people forms to fill in or directing people to a website. In a sense, you (CS) have messed up my night and got me in for my meeting 2 hours late without a working shower, why should I waste my time filling in more forms, photographing tickets etc to get my recompense. That’s your problem. The automatic system on Virgin Trains works very well in my experience (albeit with a short delay), so the technology exists.
I sometimes read the chat about customers rather than passengers, customer hosts and guest ambassadors and wince slightly. Nevertheless the customer service expectation for someone paying £400 for a Caledonian Double is different to someone paying £14.99 on the Stansted Ryanair flight. I hope the Mk5 introduction improves for them soon.
I would also question in days of Faster Payments, mobile payments allowing thousands to transfer instantly, whether card payments taking days to clear in either direction will remain the norm. It’s almost as bad as cheques !
I sometimes read the chat about customers rather than passengers, customer hosts and guest ambassadors and wince slightly. Nevertheless the customer service expectation for someone paying £400 for a Caledonian Double is different to someone paying £14.99 on the Stansted Ryanair flight. I hope the Mk5 introduction improves for them soon.
I would also question in days of Faster Payments, mobile payments allowing thousands to transfer instantly, whether card payments taking days to clear in either direction will remain the norm. It’s almost as bad as cheques !
Refunds should be automatic in this day and age and they should be processed on the morning of arrival as a matter of course. As has been mentioned the technology exists.
It's the complete buffoonery of the situation that gets me more than anything. We are six weeks or so down the line from introduction and there has been barely a night that without a saga attached to it. After six weeks it's obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that this isn't going to plan.
By now there should have been a robust plan in place for a management presence at the terminal stations each morning and evening to assist with the fallout from this and to ensure that delayed guests/passengers/customers or whatever they are being called this week are properly looked after during disruption. The operation on the ground sounds absolutely woeful.
The reservations system needs looking at quickly. It should be mandatory that contact details are provided for all reservations regardless of the channel used and the system should not be providing reservations without this information. There are too many people saying that they haven't been informed of X, Y and Z.
Some of the stories here and online might be unexpected the first couple of times they happen, however six weeks down the line all these issues should be predictable and plans should be in place to deal with it.
It's the complete buffoonery of the situation that gets me more than anything. We are six weeks or so down the line from introduction and there has been barely a night that without a saga attached to it. After six weeks it's obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that this isn't going to plan.
By now there should have been a robust plan in place for a management presence at the terminal stations each morning and evening to assist with the fallout from this and to ensure that delayed guests/passengers/customers or whatever they are being called this week are properly looked after during disruption. The operation on the ground sounds absolutely woeful.
The reservations system needs looking at quickly. It should be mandatory that contact details are provided for all reservations regardless of the channel used and the system should not be providing reservations without this information. There are too many people saying that they haven't been informed of X, Y and Z.
Some of the stories here and online might be unexpected the first couple of times they happen, however six weeks down the line all these issues should be predictable and plans should be in place to deal with it.
Mainliner
Member
Absolutely, and my impression is that the whole operation, from the top down, hasn’t grasped the change of mindset that is necessary when promising a “hotel on wheels” at the prices now being charged.
Mainliner
Member
As many people have posted above, the absolute minimum provision with regard to delayed boarding should have been arrangements to keep a lounge open, or installation of a couple of portaloos instead of telling people to go down the road, a trolley with hot drinks where people are sitting or standing waiting.
Any organisation intending to operate a successful long-term service would surely have put such minimum measures in place, and the failure to do so suggests an operation that has given up, doesn’t want to increase losses, and is already looking for a way out.
I am getting very confused with this now, RTT shows it going via the east coast calling at Edinburgh with a half hour wait then onto Glasgow!!!!
jagardner1984
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That said I’ve always found the staff on the ground the best thing about the whole operation, and the best advert for the service.
Personally I’d have thought an ad campaign based on those people who represent the best of Scotland’s hospitality, would have done far better than moody photos of models walking along smoky platforms. There was an excellent section on the sleeper in the BBCs “inside central station” recently, for example.
If they can’t deliver the basics, and they don’t have any management presence to deal with the fall out Day to day (before the evening service gets in to Euston is there even a single member of staff on the ground ?), they should at least pull the #DreamBig “journey of a nighttime” stuff until they can stabilise a bit. Even the crappest PR company in the world would advise them posting that stuff every other day when your customers are being collected in the West Midlands in busses to go up the M6, is really only going to invite anger and put off customers. As are lengthy articles in the Daily Record with photos of crisps in trays on the floor (not a Mk5 issue of course).
There is clearly a desire to Make the sleeper pay its way (/reduce the cost to the taxpayer in losses) by going for the higher end market. But from experience, rural Scotland in February is a pretty quiet place, and they have to get it right for the people that live and work here to sustain it then. Serco or no Serco, this has to work. If those £100m carriages are sitting idle in a few years thanks to Serco and Transport Scotland’s incompetence and intransigence, there will be much head scratching and tough questions asked in Parliament about where it all went wrong.
Personally I’d have thought an ad campaign based on those people who represent the best of Scotland’s hospitality, would have done far better than moody photos of models walking along smoky platforms. There was an excellent section on the sleeper in the BBCs “inside central station” recently, for example.
If they can’t deliver the basics, and they don’t have any management presence to deal with the fall out Day to day (before the evening service gets in to Euston is there even a single member of staff on the ground ?), they should at least pull the #DreamBig “journey of a nighttime” stuff until they can stabilise a bit. Even the crappest PR company in the world would advise them posting that stuff every other day when your customers are being collected in the West Midlands in busses to go up the M6, is really only going to invite anger and put off customers. As are lengthy articles in the Daily Record with photos of crisps in trays on the floor (not a Mk5 issue of course).
There is clearly a desire to Make the sleeper pay its way (/reduce the cost to the taxpayer in losses) by going for the higher end market. But from experience, rural Scotland in February is a pretty quiet place, and they have to get it right for the people that live and work here to sustain it then. Serco or no Serco, this has to work. If those £100m carriages are sitting idle in a few years thanks to Serco and Transport Scotland’s incompetence and intransigence, there will be much head scratching and tough questions asked in Parliament about where it all went wrong.
Kendalian
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Yes and this is summed up by the failure to provide lounge facilities beyond the normal closing time when the Lowlander boarding is delayed.
There’s a review on Tripadvisor from someone saying they were turfed out of the lounge at 2230 and had to stay on the concourse with no facilities open until boarding finally at 0100.
Any upmarket hotel treating its guests like that would soon be closing.
I’ve no idea what is going on with CS IT but something clearly isn’t working. I never received my email for 19th June Highlander and countless others haven’t either it seems. Sorry not good enough!
mralexn
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Hope this one helps, although as it is on twitter it should be taken with a pinch of salt.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Thing is, it wasn't - a RRB was put on. Therefore you're not stranded (nasty though an overnight bus is) therefore LNER don't have to do anything.