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TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding?

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mmh

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Might have to back it up with the occasional RPI swoop where anyone with a Bolton ticket would be followed up with the maximum vigour and publicity.

Why? For maximum bad publicity?
 
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Ianno87

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The simplest solution would be the solution that is used for many other services across the country. At Manchester Airport, Piccadilly and Oxford Road the platform PIS would not show Bolton as a stop on the service and the PIS on the train would not mention Bolton when heading from Manchester. At Bolton, the service heading to Manchester would not be advertised - when the service is at the platform the PIS can display to not board this service as tickets from Bolton are not valid, backed up with an announcement. That would stop the majority of customers from boarding. Why not path it into platform 4 on the way to Manchester, even less likely to get anyone boarding!

I don't see the harm in permitting Bolton passengers to board in the Airport direction - gives a better service for those aiming for a flight, and supprts the turn up and go Manchester bound service frequency from Bolton.

But 'sneak' it through Platform 4 by all means if pathing permits, but advertised on the CIS.
 

156478

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If I remember rightly Bolton is a Northern Rail operated station so I can't see how TPE will get Northern Rail to enforce this and stop commuters boarding the trains, and it will be very interesting to see how this can be enforced and that's before we mention the situation at the Manchester Stations.

I have vivid memories when it was 185s from Scotland to Manchester on that infamous heavily loaded morning train and when we pulled into Bolton I could not believe the sheer amount of people who were on the platform trying to board a train that was already heaving from Lancaster and bursting by Preston and no doubt a significant amount of people who were on the platform probably didnt get on the Northern service in front of ours either.

Then finding its every person for themselves to get on the 1700 (or there abouts train) train from Manchester back up to Scotland- it was heaving from the Airport already and it called at Bolton, Chorley and Buckshaw Parkway and it only got quiet at Lancaster.

Im stuck in a dilema- on one hand someone from Wigan or Bolton is equally entitled to be on a train as someone who is going much further along the route and vice versa- They are complying with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Railway Byelaws etc as they have paid a fare and have equal rights and if anything have endured overcrowded trains, prolonged engineering works and industrial action. TPE will be entitled to lucrative ORCATS revenue also and with all the TOCs just now- every penny counts.

But then on the other hand the selfish one in me thinks that because Im heading to Scotland- I should get a seat because I will be on the train three or four times longer than someone who is going to Bolton.

I will watch this one with interest.
 

Bletchleyite

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Might have to back it up with the occasional RPI swoop where anyone with a Bolton ticket would be followed up with the maximum vigour and publicity.

Just miss the Bolton stop out every now and then and charge them all tickets to Preston (and pay to get back, too). That'll be enough to make the point. Run a separate service from Bolton behind it.
 

Antman

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I used to be able to get trains direct to Glasgow, Nottingham, Oxford, the South Coast and even London (Kensington Olympia) Bolton is Britain’s biggest town by some metrics. It has a much more limited choice of services now. Then they have had to endure a woefully bad service during the electrification. Their new trains are 35 years old. They have had awful pacers that were massively overcrowded. For too long.
 

Ianno87

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Just miss the Bolton stop out every now and then and charge them all tickets to Preston (and pay to get back, too). That'll be enough to make the point. Run a separate service from Bolton behind it.

That's not quite as effective as the Reading/Taunton fare difference! Won't really work anyway, or in my view be necessary. Bolton commuters behave differently to Reading commuters.
 

a_c_skinner

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We are missing the point, which is not enough seats between Oxford Road and Preston and Lancaster, which is back to trains and platforms too short, not enough stock (with 319s sitting in sidings after coming off Thameslink) and limited track capacity. How to get Bolton commuters onto other trains? Offer seats.
 

paddington

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But then on the other hand the selfish one in me thinks that because Im heading to Scotland- I should get a seat because I will be on the train three or four times longer than someone who is going to Bolton.

On a purely theoretical basis I would say a passenger travelling for 20 minutes should get to sit for 20 minutes, while a passenger travelling for 3 hours and 20 minutes could stand for 20 minutes then sit for 3 hours. Of course I'm disregarding the other factors in play like overcrowding.
 

Wtloild

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We are missing the point, which is not enough seats between Oxford Road and Preston and Lancaster, which is back to trains and platforms too short, not enough stock (with 319s sitting in sidings after coming off Thameslink) and limited track capacity. How to get Bolton commuters onto other trains? Offer seats.

Exactly the point

How about TPE legally challenge Northern/Network Rail about their inadequate trains/stations systematically compromising the TPE service.
Even now this route could easily fill 6-coach trains at most points during the day (rather than the current 4), & that's not accounting for the many people who've been turned off using rail on this route because of its sardine-can reputation.
 

AndrewE

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On a purely theoretical basis I would say a passenger travelling for 20 minutes should get to sit for 20 minutes, while a passenger travelling for 3 hours and 20 minutes could stand for 20 minutes then sit for 3 hours. Of course I'm disregarding the other factors in play like overcrowding.
That's not much help if the long-distance passenger can't physically get onto the train in the first place...
 

Meerkat

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And cramming onto a full and standing train with luggage is not good for them or those then trying to get off.
 

muz379

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They are complying with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Railway Byelaws etc as they have paid a fare and have equal rights and if anything have endured overcrowded trains, prolonged engineering works and industrial action. TPE will be entitled to lucrative ORCATS revenue also and with all the TOCs just now- every penny counts.

But then on the other hand the selfish one in me thinks that because Im heading to Scotland- I should get a seat because I will be on the train three or four times longer than someone who is going to Bolton.

I will watch this one with interest.
They are not complying with the conditions of carriage if boarding a train marked pick up only with the intention to alight .

As for heading to Scotland and getting a seat , there is more than just getting a seat at stake . Actually being able to get on the train at all in the first place would be the issue .
 

Greybeard33

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We are missing the point, which is not enough seats between Oxford Road and Preston and Lancaster, which is back to trains and platforms too short, not enough stock (with 319s sitting in sidings after coming off Thameslink) and limited track capacity. How to get Bolton commuters onto other trains? Offer seats.
This thread is about stopping off peak trains at Bolton, so commuters are not relevant. From the link in the OP:
“Later this summer, we are planning to commence stopping our Anglo-Scottish services at Bolton during off-peak hours..."
Yes the trains are crowded in the peaks, but off peak there are usually lots of empty seats. Northern runs 7tph all day between Bolton and Manchester, of which 5tph are now usually 4-car and the other 2tph 3-car. That makes 26 carriages per hour, of which 12 (3*4-car) run via Piccadilly/Oxford Road and the other 14 via Victoria/Salford Central.

A 4-car Northern service departs Piccadilly for Bolton only 8 minutes ahead of the TPE service. How many extra Bolton passengers are likely to turn up during those 8 minutes in an off peak hour?
 

a_c_skinner

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Apologies, that isn't clear from the thread title (TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding?), or indeed much of the debate. How to stop commuters boarding seems more about peak times, unless something odd has happened at my end to the title. Yes, off peak seems OK, though not lavish, when I'm on the services from Lancaster.
 

Greybeard33

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Just miss the Bolton stop out every now and then and charge them all tickets to Preston (and pay to get back, too). That'll be enough to make the point. Run a separate service from Bolton behind it.
Seriously? Go to all the trouble and expense of running an extra unit and crew all the way from Bolton to Scotland, carrying mainly fresh air? Just to punish maybe a few Bolton OAPs on their way back from a weekly shop in Manchester, who might have learnt from experience that the nice TPE train makes an unadvertised stop at Bolton?

Get real!
 

Greybeard33

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Apologies, that isn't clear from the thread title (TPE Scotland/Bolton/Manchester. How to stop commuters boarding?), or indeed much of the debate. How to stop commuters boarding seems more about peak times, unless something odd has happened at my end to the title. Yes, off peak seems OK, though not lavish, when I'm on the services from Lancaster.
Yes, it would be helpful if @Howardh could amend the misleading thread title. The source Bolton News article headline is also misleading:
Scottish trains set to stop in Bolton again - but commuters will not be allowed on.
However, the quote from TPE in the text of the story makes clear that the trains will still be running through non stop during commuting hours.
 

Bletchleyite

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Seriously? Go to all the trouble and expense of running an extra unit and crew all the way from Bolton to Scotland, carrying mainly fresh air? Just to punish maybe a few Bolton OAPs on their way back from a weekly shop in Manchester, who might have learnt from experience that the nice TPE train makes an unadvertised stop at Bolton?

Get real!

The GWR certainly did it to Reading commuters for exactly that reason. Fiennes writes about it in his book. It could I suppose be run to Preston only for a connection.
 

Glenn1969

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A connectional timetable is only superior if the connections can be relied on. As somebody who has a disability that makes my mobility much slower than it used to be I prefer a direct service where possible even if it takes a diversionary route that would make a connecting itinerary quicker
 

a_c_skinner

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misleading thread title

I read it as meaning one way of stopping commuters filling the Scottish services was not stopping them in Bolton so the thread was about all hours so I don't see your stricture as that obvious. I take your point about peak times being important and off peak largely satisfactory, which is the story of so much of British rail. As to what is relevant to the services for Scottish passengers we will have to wait to see the loadings as far as Preston after the changes.
 

PermitToTravel

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The GWR certainly did it to Reading commuters for exactly that reason. Fiennes writes about it in his book. It could I suppose be run to Preston only for a connection.
It was very very profitable for FGW: they had a long train full of people they could charge the anytime day single for the journey (>£100, +administrative fees if they don't pay), and then charge them again for a ticket home.

I'm confident it's not about saving seats for those going further, merely about making money. It wouldn't be profitable with a shorter train and a £10.30 penalty.
 

Ianno87

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A couple of times a day. Surely a far more frequent connectional timetable is vastly superior?

Every 2 hours to Bournemouth (for a brief period) under Operation Princess. And more like 4-5 XC services per day in the 1999-2002 period.

But yes, the abundance of connections at Manchester/Stockport and Preston (and getting a seat at Piccadilly) means I'm not that fussed about through trains.
 

js1000

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This is impossible to police. If TOCs don't want commuters using long-distance services than that's not the passengers problem but an industry problem - a lack of seats. If we start banning passengers from boarding certain trains because of insufficient capacity then where does this stop? It's a slippery slope.

As a couple of others have said, I would rather TPE along with the DfT pressure Northern into upgrading capacity on their services. Once the 331s are introduced, there should be sufficient capacity to run some 6 coach 323s or 331s between Bolton and Manchester at peak times. The reality is Northern and TPE are going to have to work closer together on certain routes where services and calling points overlap. For instance, there is some demand for having a few more TPE services on the Styal Line during peak hours in/out of Manchester now skip-stopping is in operation. The problem is TPE have little to no incentive to because the ORCAT revenue system is bent in Northern's favour.

Also, it would be a very daft TOC to start issuing penalty fares/fines (furthermore, I'd question if they actually could) given the bad PR that would attract. Nothing demonstrates incompetence to the public than "Commuter fined for having valid ticket between Bolton and Manchester" plastered all over the local news. When a headline like that appears it turns a lot of prospective, leisure travellers off.

Penalising passengers for industry problems is most certainly not the way to go.
 

Meerkat

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Nothing demonstrates incompetence to the public than "Commuter fined for having valid ticket between Bolton and Manchester" plastered all over the local news. When a headline like that appears it turns a lot of prospective, leisure travellers off

But they don’t have a valid ticket....
And leisure travellers are just as likely to be encouraged by being able to get on a train not rammed with commuters
 

Antman

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Where is the capacity on the route. People talk about commuting times. And this is off peak. But load is huge. Students. Shoppers. Those waiting for offpeak tickets. The local people have suffered from an embarrassingly bad service for years. They are promised new speedy electric trains. And they see new trains. And they are being limited in how they use them.

It is also clear from some the of the posters here, they don’t really get it. These people are passengers. They are human. They are already resentful of how they have been treated. And now it is still second class citizens. They have been landed with trains that they know are too old and knackered to keep servicing Luton and the S London hood and are supposed to be grateful for it....what does that say about the attitude to Lancastrians? Where are the new units? Where is the huge amount of new stock? I am with them. It’s a kick in the teeth to be not allowed on the nice new trains, only the old ones. You’re not good enough. Know your place, Boltonians.

And that’s before the embarrassment that is the Manchester to Blackburn/Clitheroe line. Have any of you actualy ridden it at peak times. It was an overcrowded disgrace twenty years ago. It’s still the same old units, more overloaded and even more worn out infrastructure and stock....
 

Bletchleyite

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This is impossible to police. If TOCs don't want commuters using long-distance services than that's not the passengers problem but an industry problem - a lack of seats.

But it's really not. What's the point in putting a 10 coach train on all the way to Scotland when a 5 coach train is adequate for those making a long distance journey. It is much more efficient to provide a shorter long distance train and a separate long commuter EMU, and that is exactly what is being proposed.

Pretty much every country in the world segregates IC and local services. They can't all be wrong.
 

Bletchleyite

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It is also clear from some the of the posters here, they don’t really get it. These people are passengers. They are human. They are already resentful of how they have been treated. And now it is still second class citizens. They have been landed with trains that they know are too old and knackered to keep servicing Luton and the S London hood and are supposed to be grateful for it....what does that say about the attitude to Lancastrians?

Oh, behave. There's nowt wrong with them. I'm quite happy with them showing up on the south WCML.

Where are the new units? Where is the huge amount of new stock?

Being tested prior to introduction. It may have escaped your notice that delayed introduction has been an issue with all the new fleets, not just those for the north.

Know your place, Boltonians.

No, know your place, commuters. As I'm sure you are well aware I am supportive of the same policy for Reading. Commuters belong on long, high-density commuter trains. InterCity passengers need shorter, lower-density trains for their longer, pricier journeys. What's the fundamental issue with this? Every single European country does it. They are not all wrong, surely.

This whining about discrimination against Bolton is like the whining that comes from the other end of the M62 (and I'm a Scouser by birth). It's just tripe and there is no need for it.

And that’s before the embarrassment that is the Manchester to Blackburn/Clitheroe line. Have any of you actualy ridden it at peak times. It was an overcrowded disgrace twenty years ago. It’s still the same old units, more overloaded and even more worn out infrastructure and stock....

It's got little to do with journeys from Manchester to Bolton - use the Blackpool EMUs or the Wigan DMUs if it bothers you.
 

Meerkat

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It is just a really negative view of something positive.
Long distance trains are being stopped so that Boltonians can travel to/from the North/Scotland.
Commuters want to get on trains that aren’t for them.....they are Long distance trains!
The alternative is for them not to stop at all.
 

Ianno87

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It is just a really negative view of something positive.
Long distance trains are being stopped so that Boltonians can travel to/from the North/Scotland.
Commuters want to get on trains that aren’t for them.....they are Long distance trains!
The alternative is for them not to stop at all.

By all means don't advertise the calls. That will be as disincentive to all but a few.

And if a few people do get on....so what exactly? The occasional diversion away from Bolton in disruption should offer enough disincentivisation rather than a financial penalty....
 
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158756

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By all means don't advertise the calls. That will be as disincentive to all but a few.

And if a few people do get on....so what exactly? The occasional diversion away from Bolton in disruption should offer enough disincentivisation rather than a financial penalty....

You can't not advertise the calls at all though - you can not advertise them on the platforms, but the timetable has to show a stop at Bolton in some form to be any use to people going north. Southbound people will just get on assuming the train goes to Manchester even if it's not on the screens.

Fines and court cases are how the railway does business. Most passengers don't read the whole timetable, or the restrictions, or understand that they can (in theory) go to prison for ignoring the restrictions. An example will need to be set to stop it. Of course this will reach the local press, and of course it will put people off travelling by train, but there will be fewer people travelling on the wrong train.
 
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