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Video Shows SouthEastern Ticket Office Staff Assaulting Person

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Stigy

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Seriously? This is clearly very much an isolated incident, most SET staff do an excellent job.
This is about what the public perception is. We know it’s isolated, but as AlterEgo says, that’s not how the press will portray it. It brings them in to disrepute, isolated or not.
 

trebor79

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Plus the guy has opened himself to comment by posting his video and fairy tale on social media.
If this actually happened the way he says, a complaint to the police and TOC would have been the normal course of action.
 

Antman

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Plus the guy has opened himself to comment by posting his video and fairy tale on social media.
If this actually happened the way he says, a complaint to the police and TOC would have been the normal course of action.

He has reported it to the police and TOC, no reason why he can't put it on social media, it's the way of things nowadays. What makes you think it was a fairly tale?
 

Llanigraham

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Unless it's changed again , I was taught in 2009 that you do remove the helmet. You rock it gently forward and backward , not in a twisting sideways motion , in case you need to stop them choking on their tongue.

That "advice" has been superseded, and you now need atleast 2 people, and it is still a last resort.
(I'm a trained motorsport First Aider!)
 

gingerheid

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Without making any other comment regarding something being investigated by the appropriate people:
- It's only natural that you wouldn't start filming a problem until after it started happening. If you started filming it before it started happening then *that* would be the thing that would be suspicious!
- Of course nowadays you would post it on social media. In the past a complaint like this would have gone nowhere, it's the accountability of everyone having a video camera in their pocket AND access to a form of media that is making the world more accountable.

It reminds me of a day a staff member at the barrier at King's Cross was collecting fivers from foreign people running for trains for not making them miss them. In those days I didn't even complain because it would have been too easy to deny... nowadays
a) The phone would be out straightaway
b) That's why nobody would dare try and pull a stunt like that any more
 

trebor79

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He has reported it to the police and TOC, no reason why he can't put it on social media, it's the way of things nowadays. What makes you think it was a fairly tale?

Well most people who fell off their bike and needed first aid would go elsewhere after being refused. You might ask again, but you wouldn't stand there bleeding for 20 minutes arguing about it.
He contradicts himself on whether he had a ticket or wanted to buy a ticket.
It just doesn't sound like normal behaviour.
Someone wouldn't react in the way the staff member did if events were as described.
Why does the video stop in the instant before any contact might take place?

There's clearly way more gone on than he says.

I don't condone the staff member doing what he appears to have done, but I do feel sorry for him, he's obviously been massively provoked.
 

Bletchleyite

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Because it means there may be mitigating circumstances.

There are no circumstances whatsoever which mitigate the circumstances shown in the video. The correct action would have been for the member of staff to remain in the booking office, close the blind/shutter and call for assistance.
 

Stigy

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That "advice" has been superseded, and you now need atleast 2 people, and it is still a last resort.
(I'm a trained motorsport First Aider!)
Unless they’re already not breathing and/or their airway in compromised. Pointless keeping the helmet on if they’re not breathing just in case you cause injury to their back of course.
 

Stigy

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He has reported it to the police and TOC, no reason why he can't put it on social media, it's the way of things nowadays. What makes you think it was a fairly tale?
Legally there could be a reason why not. There’s no crime in filming someone, but putting it over social media?
 

bramling

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There are no circumstances whatsoever which mitigate the circumstances shown in the video. The correct action would have been for the member of staff to remain in the booking office, close the blind/shutter and call for assistance.

In the real world people can and do snap. So whilst it shouldn’t have happened, I’d expect the company to reach a conclusion based on the circumstances, and taking into account the member of staff’s overall record.

If things were as straightforward in life that things that shouldn’t happen don’t happen then the world would be a much better place, but unfortunately this is unrealistic.
 

LOL The Irony

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Well the man contradicts himself and hides things in the post such as the fact he was annoying this guy for 20 to 30 minutes and in the post he say's he already had a valid ticket but in the news article, it say's he wanted to buy one.

FB post:
Then he asks me to leave because he doesn't want to see me bleeding around anymore..
When I refused to leave because I had a valid ticket, he attacked me.

Kent Live article:
He claims: "I came to the station and told him something like 'I need a ticket to London, but firstly please could you help me with a first aid kit? I had an accident on my bike going downhill to the station'."
 

Bletchleyite

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In the real world people can and do snap. So whilst it shouldn’t have happened, I’d expect the company to reach a conclusion based on the circumstances, and taking into account the member of staff’s overall record.

If things were as straightforward in life that things that shouldn’t happen don’t happen then the world would be a much better place, but unfortunately this is unrealistic.

Really? In most jobs one would be sacked on the spot for any form of violence.
 

trebor79

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Really? In most jobs one would be sacked on the spot for any form of violence.
Two guys started fighting in the control room of a factory I used to work at. One had been antagonising the other by tickling his ear (strange things happen on night shifts!), and been asked to stop multiple times.
Eventually the person being tickled snapped and punched the other guy, who then punched him back before the rest of us broke it up.
Both were disciplined but both kept their jobs on final warnings.
This was a big FTSE100 company, so investigations and procedures were done properly. Certainly no sacking on the spot.
 

Bromley boy

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Two guys started fighting in the control room of a factory I used to work at. One had been antagonising the other by tickling his ear (strange things happen on night shifts!), and been asked to stop multiple times.
Eventually the person being tickled snapped and punched the other guy, who then punched him back before the rest of us broke it up.
Both were disciplined but both kept their jobs on final warnings.
This was a big FTSE100 company, so investigations and procedures were done properly. Certainly no sacking on the spot.

Indeed.

The real world approach of (competent) management is thankfully a lot more nuanced than the standard forum “sack them on the spot” approach. Many posters on this board see things in black and white and lack real world experience and insight into such matters.

I certainly hope a measured approach is adopted by management in this case, clearly something else had gone on to provoke the employee.
 
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ainsworth74

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To my mind a scenario where two members of staff get into a physical altercation with each other, in private, where there's no risk of reputational damage, and no police involvement is very very different to where a staff member attacks a member of the public, where that attack is publicised in the local media and online risking the reputation of the company and the police get involved.

In the former it could probably be handled internally with a final warning. In the latter? Well if I did that in my place of work I have no doubt I'd be sacked for gross misconduct.
 

Deafdoggie

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I find it both strange and alarming that an employee comes storming out of an office swearing at a customer and their are people sticking up for him!
That is why railway employees have such a poor customer service reputation.
We may not know what went on before or after, but we don’t need to. We can see what happened then. If you’ve nothing to hide, you’ve no fear in being recorded. I regularly have customers saying they’ll film me, to which I hold no objections and encourage them to do.
But anyone defending the actions of this man need to think long and hard if they’re in the right job.
 

reb0118

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The station chappie appears to be Scottish. It never pays to antagonise a Scotsman - we are professionally trained to hold grudges.
 

Bletchleyite

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The station chappie appears to be Scottish. It never pays to antagonise a Scotsman - we are professionally trained to hold grudges.

They certainly do seem to do things differently in Scotland. It wouldn't actually surprise me to see a member of staff physically chucking someone out up there, and that approach being more accepted. I still remember seeing a (fairly slight and short, but no doubt formidable) female guard chase a fare evader off a train and out of the station in Scotland, I think it was Stirling, and it was surprisingly recent - last 10 years certainly.
 

LOL The Irony

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They certainly do seem to do things differently in Scotland. It wouldn't actually surprise me to see a member of staff physically chucking someone out up there, and that approach being more accepted. I still remember seeing a (fairly slight and short, but no doubt formidable) female guard chase a fare evader off a train and out of the station in Scotland, I think it was Stirling, and it was surprisingly recent - last 10 years certainly.
There's that video of a fare evader on a ScotRail Turbostar being forcibly ejected by a fellow passenger and then not being let back on. The culture there certainly allows such things.
I find it both strange and alarming that an employee comes storming out of an office swearing at a customer and their are people sticking up for him!
That is why railway employees have such a poor customer service reputation.
The member of staff did mess up by doing that but the supposed victim is definatly not faultless. He seems to have provoked this member of staff into doing so and hidden certain details in his FB post.
 

aye2beeviasea

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I find it both strange and alarming that an employee comes storming out of an office swearing at a customer and their are people sticking up for him!
That is why railway employees have such a poor customer service reputation.
We may not know what went on before or after, but we don’t need to. We can see what happened then. If you’ve nothing to hide, you’ve no fear in being recorded. I regularly have customers saying they’ll film me, to which I hold no objections and encourage them to do.
But anyone defending the actions of this man need to think long and hard if they’re in the right job.
This is railforums.co.uk. If there was footage showing a railway employee standing atop a pile of bloodied corpses of passengers, brandishing a chainsaw, and biting chunks from one of his victim's severed limbs, there would still be people here saying more to the story, two sides to everything, he's the real victim, must be the horrid passengers' fault, etc etc.
 

ComUtoR

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This is railforums.co.uk. If there was footage showing a railway employee standing atop a pile of bloodied corpses of passengers, brandishing a chainsaw, and biting chunks from one of his victim's severed limbs, there would still be people here saying more to the story, two sides to everything, he's the real victim, must be the horrid passengers' fault, etc etc.

TBH that does sound like a Zombie invasion but being RUK there would be questions raised over the health and safety regulations of using a Chainsaw in the workplace and that whilst Staff should be protecting Passengers from a Zombie invasion, it wouldn't be good customer service to use violence against people who pay your wages and maybe Delay Repay should have been offered instead. Probably a few complaints about the lift not working and wheelchair passengers succumbing to the horde is down to the failings at the DfT for not providing level access. Although being RUK having ironing board seats will probably be a benefit in this situation.
 

ainsworth74

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Sorry, but in the real world things are very different.
Any organisation I've worked for would have dismissed any member of staff instantly for gross misconduct if they'd attacked a member of the public, brought the organisation into disrepute and ended up with police involvement over the incident.
 

Brissle Girl

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The KentLive report reports that the complainant said the police "watched the station's CCTV", as well as speaking with the staff member. I'm slightly surprised this would be available immediately, but I do think that will be useful evidence (although presumably it doesn't record the conversation?).

Now suppose the guy is bleeding badly enough to warrant immediate attention (unlikely it would appear). If so then maybe the employee asked him to leave under the byelaw which states "
No person shall enter or remain on the railway if, in the reasonable opinion of an authorised person, he is in an unfit or improper condition or his clothing may soil or damage any part of the railway or the property or clothing of any person on the railway. " If he did, and the person failed to leave then they would be in breach. Notwithstanding that, I suspect he had been asked to leave beforehand, in which case the complainant is still in breach of the bylaws.

If he wasn't bleeding badly, which is probably the case given the incident lasted half an hour, then why did the complainant keep demanding the first aid kit for such a long time? That seems very odd behaviour.

I suspect the member of staff snapped when he had the phone thrust at him taking his photo. I could understand this if the guy had been hassling him for 30 minutes in some way that obviously we didn't see, and whilst his behaviour is not excusable, I don't think I would take very kindly to that type of provocation, though would probably have brought the shutter down and called the BTP to have him removed.

I had a wry smile when I saw that the complainant is a bouncer and martial arts instructor. Sounds like he is perfectly able to take care of himself.

I doubt we will ever hear the other side of the story.
 

bramling

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Really? In most jobs one would be sacked on the spot for any form of violence.

The railway doesn’t do sacking on the spot. There will always be some form of investigation followed by if appropriate a disciplinary hearing, and quite rightly so because dismissing people isn’t really a good outcome for anyone - someone is out of a job, and someone else needs to be trained to replace them which costs time and money, and whilst that’s going on their duties need to be covered. The only exception is when someone chooses to resign in anticipation of being dismissed at disciplinary hearing, often on union advice, and for that it would have to be something bad.

It’s a fact of life that humans do things they shouldn’t, and my view is at least some consideration should be given to context in these situations.
 

Bletchleyite

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The KentLive report reports that the complainant said the police "watched the station's CCTV", as well as speaking with the staff member. I'm slightly surprised this would be available immediately, but I do think that will be useful evidence (although presumably it doesn't record the conversation?).

Now suppose the guy is bleeding badly enough to warrant immediate attention (unlikely it would appear). If so then maybe the employee asked him to leave under the byelaw which states "
No person shall enter or remain on the railway if, in the reasonable opinion of an authorised person, he is in an unfit or improper condition or his clothing may soil or damage any part of the railway or the property or clothing of any person on the railway. " If he did, and the person failed to leave then they would be in breach. Notwithstanding that, I suspect he had been asked to leave beforehand, in which case the complainant is still in breach of the bylaws.

The mechanism for enforcing which, of course, is either summoning BTP assistance or retrospective prosecution.
 

Bletchleyite

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would probably have brought the shutter down and called the BTP to have him removed.

Which is what he should have done.

Fundamentally, someone who loses their temper and resorts to physical violence as a result of verbal taunting (and it could not have been anything else, because there was security glass between the two of them, so there was no conceivable physical threat whatsoever) is not fit for a position working with customers in a public facing role.

If he was physically attacked he could use reasonable force to defend himself, but even with only that excerpt it is quite obvious that there is no conceivable way that could have been the case. He might have banged on the window, but again that poses no physical threat as it is security glass. The only way someone outside the booking office could pose a physical threat against someone in it would be if they had a gun or a bomb, but there is no suggestion at all that this was the case.

This does not make it OK to verbally taunt/abuse railway staff. If the alleged scenario was as per the above, it simply means both of them were in the wrong.
 
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