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Bus route numbers

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SCH117X

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Has anyone ever seen an explanation of the numbering used by Midland General which seemed to a random assortment of a letter followed by a single number i.e. B2 Nottingham-Ripley, F4 Nottingham-Hucknall Beauvale Estate. Was the letter the core reroute and the digit a variation? Thinking of Nottingham there were numerous duplicated route numbers for completely different services as each operator numbered individually without any unified scheme and today two completely different 9's cross Trent Bridge; a NCT service to West Bridgford and a Kinch service to Loughborough. Also it was an example of a regular service between two places frequently throughout the day going different ways when the Clifton Estate services were all numbered in the 60s; for a period the route taken was clear due to the operator with NCT services going via Clifton Bridge and South Notts and West Bridgford ones going via Trent Bridge but became less obvious once the West Bridgford was sold to NCT until the Clifton Bridge services were renumbered into the 40s.
 
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Statto

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Speaking of numbers/letters combo, i find it amusing sometimes when some routes have, letter, number, letter, Yourbus West Midlands before they got bought by Travel West Midlands, had there routes ending in Y, such as 50Y, so when they introduced a circular route, it was numbered A6Y/C6Y.

Also in Liverpool, Crosville introduced industrial variations of the main route, added suffix X, so industrial variation of the H6/H8 became H6X/H8X.

Also from when they were formed, Fareway of Kirkby numbered there commercial services Fx series, industrial routes had the same X suffix as Crosville did, so F4 became F4X
 

Ken H

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Do any operators not use names or numbers ? I recall that the municipalities of Doncaster and Maidstone along with most of those in the South Wales valleys had a destination blind showing just that - the destination.
Pennine didnt when they had coaches. dunno about later when they had buses - I was living in the midlands.

Trent Barton Dont have numbers round Nottingham. they have route names like the Calverton Connection

Samuel ledgard didnt display numbers.

cant remember if Kippax Motors (part of Wallace Arnold) did route numbers. They went from Leeds to Garforth.

South Yorkshire didnt
iu
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Pennine didnt when they had coaches. dunno about later when they had buses - I was living in the midlands.

Trent Barton Dont have numbers round Nottingham. they have route names like the Calverton Connection

Samuel ledgard didnt display numbers.

cant remember if Kippax Motors (part of Wallace Arnold) did route numbers. They went from Leeds to Garforth.

South Yorkshire didnt
iu

Many old established firms never used numbers though the services had them for administrative purposes. Only displayed them in the post deregulation era when they were obliged to (like OKMS)
 

Ken H

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Is it too off topic to ask why we are used to seeing buses with number but not trains?

I know the old Southern used to do route numbers, but that went when Mk1 stock was replaced.

I would welcome PIS displaying reporting numbers, and have them printed in timetables.
 

Tom B

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700s: Work services (in the days of colliery/ steel works having large numbers of staff all working the same shifts), the "Early Bird" services in Sheffield

There were (in Mainline days at least) 8xx services in Doncaster for early journeys - one (865 perhaps?) took in the entire lengths of services 455, 170 and 165 as they got closer to town. Last time I looked at the current 57 service timetable, there was one early morning journey at exactly the same time (0435) as the erstwhile service from 25+ years ago.


Do any operators not use names or numbers ? I recall that the municipalities of Doncaster and Maidstone along with most of those in the South Wales valleys had a destination blind showing just that - the destination.

I believe Doncaster did have service numbers by the 60s, possibly post trolleybuses. They started from 1 (Skellow?) upwards. When the SYPTE was formed in 1974 and the numbering scheme that tbtc refers to was adopted, 150 was added to each service number. Presumably around this time, out of town services were integrated from other operators eg Moorends and Finningleys.
This persisted until 2001/2 ish when FirstBus renumbered, removing the leading 1 and shuffling some numbers around. This did result in some duplication between Sheffield and Doncaster, although presumably not an issue.
So the original service 10 (Cantley) became 170 which became 57.

Part of the 2001 renumbering related to the corridors (so 50/51/52/53/54 were all York Road services, 55/56/57/58/59 all Bennethorpe onwards).

Now if anyone wants a confusing set of route numbers, the current First Mainline 57/58 timetable has a 57, 57A, 57F, 58, 58A, 58F and is quite a mess really. This is the attempt at running what was once several different routes as one, whilst keeping a combined frequency over the main section. (Previously, there were 6 different services doing different areas, now odd circulars and great confusion. The routes incorporated had a PVR of 15-16 in c.2004, now 6 buses do it all).
 

JetBlast

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Is it too off topic to ask why we are used to seeing buses with number but not trains?

It had crossed my mind in the past. I would rather trains had a system like flight numbers. IE only 1 per day. It would be much clearer what train you can use when you don't have a flexible ticket. Many times I have seen people on the wrong train with the a ticket that should be used on a specific service.
 

NorthOxonian

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Speaking of numbers/letters combo, i find it amusing sometimes when some routes have, letter, number, letter, Yourbus West Midlands before they got bought by Travel West Midlands, had there routes ending in Y, such as 50Y, so when they introduced a circular route, it was numbered A6Y/C6Y.

Also in Liverpool, Crosville introduced industrial variations of the main route, added suffix X, so industrial variation of the H6/H8 became H6X/H8X.

Also from when they were formed, Fareway of Kirkby numbered there commercial services Fx series, industrial routes had the same X suffix as Crosville did, so F4 became F4X

My personal favourite example of this is the X1X (already mentioned earlier), which are peak time express services between Bristol and Weston-super-Mare via the M5.

Mind, there are some legitimate uses for that format. Stagecoach seem to put S in front of all their "cross-country" routes in Oxfordshire, but the S5 number is used to refer to all of their services to Bicester (except for the X5 which goes far beyond Bicester). In reality, there are three different routes, which could be come S5A, S5B, and S5C. They could perhaps take a similar approach to the S1, S2, and S3, both of which have variations too (respectively those which terminate in Witney, express services along the A40, and services either going via Charlbury or avoiding it). It would probably be more confusing for some passengers, but would save other passengers a lot of grief.
 

Dai Corner

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My personal favourite example of this is the X1X (already mentioned earlier), which are peak time express services between Bristol and Weston-super-Mare via the M5.

Mind, there are some legitimate uses for that format. Stagecoach seem to put S in front of all their "cross-country" routes in Oxfordshire, but the S5 number is used to refer to all of their services to Bicester (except for the X5 which goes far beyond Bicester). In reality, there are three different routes, which could be come S5A, S5B, and S5C. They could perhaps take a similar approach to the S1, S2, and S3, both of which have variations too (respectively those which terminate in Witney, express services along the A40, and services either going via Charlbury or avoiding it). It would probably be more confusing for some passengers, but would save other passengers a lot of grief.

It's probably just as well there isn't an S1X .

First WoE's Bristol-Chepstow-Newport service was numbered X7 after the river it crosses but is now named Severn Express, sometimes written as 7XP.
 

daodao

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In Liverpool, Crosville introduced industrial variations of the main route, added suffix X, so industrial variation of the H6/H8 became H6X/H8X. Also from when they were formed, Fareway of Kirkby numbered there commercial services Fx series, industrial routes had the same X suffix as Crosville did, so F4 became F4X

Manchester traditionally added a small "x" as a suffix to rush hour extras that typically only ran a segment of the actual route. The trams used to have varied suffixes for such short workings or slight route variations. In some instances, when a route was withdrawn, the rush hour extras remained, still with that route's number plus the letter suffix. On the buses/trolleybuses, the indicator blind for the last number was 0/0x/1/1x/2/2x etc; the trams used stencils for the whole number including suffix where applicable.
 

tbtc

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I believe Doncaster did have service numbers by the 60s, possibly post trolleybuses. They started from 1 (Skellow?) upwards. When the SYPTE was formed in 1974 and the numbering scheme that tbtc refers to was adopted, 150 was added to each service number. Presumably around this time, out of town services were integrated from other operators eg Moorends and Finningleys.
This persisted until 2001/2 ish when FirstBus renumbered, removing the leading 1 and shuffling some numbers around. This did result in some duplication between Sheffield and Doncaster, although presumably not an issue

Ah, but First being First, they've found a way to complicate things...

Since closing Midland Road depot, the Rotherham "town" services are shared between depots in Sheffield and Rotherham. Which initially meant renumbering some Rotherham services (adding one hundred to the route number, bringing them back to what they were thirty years ago). That was fine, but it was cheaper to share the Rotherham routes between Doncaster/ Sheffield, to squeeze any spare resource they could (rather than having Sheffield buses run western Rotherham and Doncaster buses run eastern Rotherham). Plus the Doncaster-run X78 (Doncaster - Sheffield) interworks with some Sheffield services (e.g. X5 to DInnington). Which meant it was easier just to have one "South Yorkshire" set of destinations on bus display screens. Which means Doncaster drivers have been unwittingly been putting Sheffield destinations when running Doncaster "town" services - e.g. the 81/82 to Armthorpe (in Donny) showing Stannington/ Dore/ Millhouses (as served by the Sheffield 81/82). Brilliant, First, brilliant.

Now if anyone wants a confusing set of route numbers, the current First Mainline 57/58 timetable has a 57, 57A, 57F, 58, 58A, 58F and is quite a mess really. This is the attempt at running what was once several different routes as one, whilst keeping a combined frequency over the main section. (Previously, there were 6 different services doing different areas, now odd circulars and great confusion. The routes incorporated had a PVR of 15-16 in c.2004, now 6 buses do it all).

It's amazing.

For anyone unfamiliar with the area, I'd recommend getting your head round the 57/58 corridor... it's a combination of circulars...

...there's twelve buses an hour from Doncaster to the east, made up of two circulars (half hourly in each direction) plus four "long" journeys per hour to Finningley...

...designed to provide four services per hour from Doncaster to the Airport and provide a link to the "iPort" (Amazon Warehouses etc) to a large suburban area too.

So you've got six buses an hour on the Cantley route (the old 170 that Tom referred to), four buses an hour on the Bessacarr corridor and two buses an hour on the Great Yorkshire Way corridor, but these three routes out of Doncaster require six different route numbers, which the ever helpful PTE show on separate timetables, so someone doing a simple journey like Cantley into Doncaster need to cross reference three (or even four) timetables.

It's a well intentioned combination of routes on paper, it gives a variety of links (not just to the town centre but also the Airport and the warehouse jobs plus the Wildlife Park) but... must be confusing for everyday passengers having to cross-reference different pages of the leaflet just to get the bus home!
 

PeterC

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Is the answer to number all bus routes as 42?
In my village it is 73 with 5 different variations on weekdays and some instances of the same route, under the same contract, numbered 71 on Saturdays. Unsurprisingly the drivers don't always bother changing the blind between 71 and 73 during the day. The locals know which is their bus anyway and outsiders are usually so confused that they head for the taxi rank instead.
 

Statto

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[QUOTE="Tom B, post: 4058564, member: 104" ]
Now if anyone wants a confusing set of route numbers, the current First Mainline 57/58 timetable has a 57, 57A, 57F, 58, 58A, 58F and is quite a mess really. This is the attempt at running what was once several different routes as one, whilst keeping a combined frequency over the main section. (Previously, there were 6 different services doing different areas, now odd circulars and great confusion. The routes incorporated had a PVR of 15-16 in c.2004, now 6 buses do it all).[/QUOTE]

Talking about confusing, Arriva Wales have 11/11A/11C/11F/11M/11X Chester-Flint-Holywell-Rhyl, because of the EU ruling, routes change numbers in Holywell still operate as through routes, 11/11A Chester-Holywell, the rest being Flint[11F]Holywell-Rhyl, 11G has been renumbered 11C & no longer serves Gronant, 11X is a couple of early morning services Rhyl-Holywell, 11F one service each direction early evening
 

Ken H

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Just found there are 2 route 7's in leeds
Infirmary St to Primley Park (First), and Bus station to Wetherby via Thorner (Harrogate and dist)
seems to be anarchy...
 

Mal

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Has anyone ever seen an explanation of the numbering used by Midland General which seemed to a random assortment of a letter followed by a single number i.e. B2 Nottingham-Ripley, F4 Nottingham-Hucknall Beauvale Estate. Was the letter the core reroute and the digit a variation?

As far as I remember, Midland General used A1 - A9 then B1 - B9 up to F8 as routes developed. I don't think that the letter was a 'core' indicator. If you google 'Midland General', there is a website with a list of all their routes in 1953 and a map of their routes as well as those of Mansfield District.
One peculiarity of Mansfield District route numbers was that they used 1xx numbers for town services and 2xx for country routes.
 

DavidGrain

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National Express West Midlands have been mentioned a couple of times. I have lived in my present house for 3 1/2 years and one of my local buses in that time has been successively 99, 241 and now 19.
 

SCH117X

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A numbering system that some operators have used with little success IME is to merge cross town/city routes and number services with the route number of the service from the town/city centre regardless of its origination so someone travelling into the centre finds they have a whole raft of services but only one of them (or a completely different number) will take them home. Nottm City Transport tried it in the 1980s and quickly abandoned it.
 

DavidGrain

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Birmingham Corporation adopted the procedure on cross city routes of using different numbers for the two directions. For example the 5A City Centre to Perry Common and the 7 City Centre to Portland Road were linked as a cross city route and operated as the 5A in one direction and 7 in the other direction. Although I did not use that route I was at school nearby and it took me sometime to work out why boys at my school talked about catching the 5A home when I knew that it was the 7 which went to Portland Road just round the corner from my school. I also had the situation after I left school and went to collage as there was a 34 rush hours only service from near where I lived to my college on the other side of the city centre which worked cross city with the 33 all day service. So I got the 33 to college and coming home used to let any number of 33s go as they were city centre only until a 34 turned up.
 

tbtc

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Just found there are 2 route 7's in leeds
Infirmary St to Primley Park (First), and Bus station to Wetherby via Thorner (Harrogate and dist)
seems to be anarchy...

There used to be two X62s in Leeds (express to Hull plus a Yorkshire Traction service to Mirfield etc that Stagecoach briefly inherited before giving up on the Waterloo depot in Huddersfield, so two services in the same city by what looked like the same operator), as well as an M62 to Halifax (First Calderline, aka Cursed Folderline) and a local service 62 that I think was First Quickstep and became First Leeds.

I DO hope that it was operated by battery buses!

:lol:

A numbering system that some operators have used with little success IME is to merge cross town/city routes and number services with the route number of the service from the town/city centre regardless of its origination so someone travelling into the centre finds they have a whole raft of services but only one of them (or a completely different number) will take them home. Nottm City Transport tried it in the 1980s and quickly abandoned it.

Burnley & Pendle used to do that on their "Mainline" corridor (they may still do, but I've not been there for some time).

Tayside buses had the 26/28/29, where all eastbound services were the 26 to Douglas but the same service westbound was the 28 and 29 (to different termini around Lochee). It's all just the 28/29 now.
 

Typhoon

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Birmingham Corporation adopted the procedure on cross city routes of using different numbers for the two directions. For example the 5A City Centre to Perry Common and the 7 City Centre to Portland Road were linked as a cross city route and operated as the 5A in one direction and 7 in the other direction. Although I did not use that route I was at school nearby and it took me sometime to work out why boys at my school talked about catching the 5A home when I knew that it was the 7 which went to Portland Road just round the corner from my school.
When I first moved to the City there were three such routes. The simplest was the 15/16 Whittington Oval to Hampstead (and back). The others had a fork at one end so if it was the 7 to Portland Road it was the 6 to Sandon Road, a turn just a bit further up the Hagley Road; both terminated at the City boundary. The last I'm a bit hazy about. I think it was 90/91/92 to Pheasey, to Hall Green boundary from Pheasey, to Baldwins Lane from Pheasey respectively. The 15/16 and 90/91/92 were operated by rather ancient Daimlers and/or Guys.
Portsmouth had a similar system for numbering routes so if the 17 was in one direction, the 18 was in the other. I think this applied to most routes. Confusing if you don't know their system.
 

Statto

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Back to Liverpool, when LCPT had trams, the trams were numbered 1 to 49, when motorbus started, motorbus routes were numbered 50-99

Early 90s Pier Head closed as a bus station, as there was no suitable City Centre terminus for all the routes, Merseybus merged a lot of the routes, most of the merged routes did a circuit of the City Centre, & on some more frequent routes, you could well alight at Hood Street Gyrotory, cross over the road & catch a bus on an earlier departure. The merged routes only lasted a few years by the mid 90s the routes were back as they were.
 

Deerfold

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Pendle used to do that on their "Mainline" corridor (they may still do, but I've not been there for some time).

I live on a Mainline route. When I moved there in 2007 we had the 25 into Keighley. I'm the other direction we had a 20, 21 or 22, depressing on which of 2 termini in Padiham or 1 in Accrington they were going to
I had no direct buses from Accrington. They used the numbers 20-29.

They then changed to having the same number in both directions, so my 25 went to Keighley and Burnley. At Burnley the bus changed number but ran through, with the timetable showing which it changed to.

Now they just use the numbers M1 to M4, with the M1-3 running through Burnley. The M4 only runs Burnley to Keighley.
 

Statto

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I live on a Mainline route. When I moved there in 2007 we had the 25 into Keighley. I'm the other direction we had a 20, 21 or 22, depressing on which of 2 termini in Padiham or 1 in Accrington they were going to
I had no direct buses from Accrington. They used the numbers 20-29.

They then changed to having the same number in both directions, so my 25 went to Keighley and Burnley. At Burnley the bus changed number but ran through, with the timetable showing which it changed to.

Now they just use the numbers M1 to M4, with the M1-3 running through Burnley. The M4 only runs Burnley to Keighley.

Yep, wasn't the Mainline system, odd numbers northbound, even numbers southbound[or vice versa], it could be really confusing if you were visiting the area & didn't know the routes had a different number on the return service, now it's straight forward.
 

Deerfold

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Yep, wasn't the Mainline system, odd numbers northbound, even numbers southbound[or vice versa], it could be really confusing if you were visiting the area & didn't know the routes had a different number on the return service, now it's straight forward.

No. Each destination had one route number. I think 20-24 were one direction and 25-29 the other.
 

DavidGrain

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When I first moved to the City there were three such routes. The simplest was the 15/16 Whittington Oval to Hampstead (and back). The others had a fork at one end so if it was the 7 to Portland Road it was the 6 to Sandon Road, a turn just a bit further up the Hagley Road; both terminated at the City boundary. The last I'm a bit hazy about. I think it was 90/91/92 to Pheasey, to Hall Green boundary from Pheasey, to Baldwins Lane from Pheasey respectively. The 15/16 and 90/91/92 were operated by rather ancient Daimlers and/or Guys.
Portsmouth had a similar system for numbering routes so if the 17 was in one direction, the 18 was in the other. I think this applied to most routes. Confusing if you don't know their system.

I had forgotten that the no. 6 to Sandon Road was incorporated into the 5A/7 as it was after my time in that area. The 5A was a variation on the 5 which I think in the end was a rush hours only service and was just a shortworking of the 5A. With WMPTE these routes could be extended across the city boundary and were merged with Midland Red routes which either covered the same roads or in the case of Portland Road made an end on connection. These new combined routes were originally given former Midland Red numbers in the 120s range. The cross city workings then finished so the Perry Common service became a stand alone service but bureaucracy reigned and instead of being numbered 5 it was numbered 7.

One quirk, after the no. 6 finished I saw an occasional rush hour service in Sandon Road carrying the number 9E as a variation on the Hagley Road no 9.
 
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