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Video Shows SouthEastern Ticket Office Staff Assaulting Person

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yorkie

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I suspect the member of staff snapped when he had the phone thrust at him taking his photo. I could understand this if the guy had been hassling him for 30 minutes in some way that obviously we didn't see, and whilst his behaviour is not excusable, I don't think I would take very kindly to that type of provocation, though would probably have brought the shutter down and called the BTP to have him removed.....
I don't see how anyone can "understand this"; regardless of what "hassling" there may have been, the behaviour is totally inexcusable.

It appears that you are suggesting that if someone turns a camera on, then it's understandable that someone might understandably react by shouting and swearing aggressively and lunging at the person. Is that what you are saying? If not, you could consider making your position clearer as I find your comments deeply concerning.

Would you be saying the same thing if the roles were reversed? I suspect not.
 
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Antman

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Legally there could be a reason why not. There’s no crime in filming someone, but putting it over social media?

Why shouldn't he put it on social media? If you want to go back to the dark ages forums like won't exist.
 

farleigh

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This is hysterical reading.

It does not matter what provocation took place. You cannot behave like that at work. In most professions, you would get the sack if you behaved like that out of work. Quite unbelievable if this sort of thing is tolerated.
 

Antman

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This is hysterical reading.

It does not matter what provocation took place. You cannot behave like that at work. In most professions, you would get the sack if you behaved like that out of work. Quite unbelievable if this sort of thing is tolerated.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, whatever the injured cyclist did is irrelevant. Nothing can justify a member of staff behaving like that.
 

bramling

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This is hysterical reading.

It does not matter what provocation took place. You cannot behave like that at work. In most professions, you would get the sack if you behaved like that out of work. Quite unbelievable if this sort of thing is tolerated.

So you’ve never, ever, made a heat-of-the-moment misjudgement at work when in a stressful or heated situation?

No one is saying it’s right or should be tolerated, however people need to think a little before jumping on the instant dismissal bandwagon. In most workplaces people are given an opportunity to improve before being dismissed, even after some pretty bad things. A final warning accompanied by some conflict management training would be a quite reasonable course of action, assuming the member of staff has an otherwise good record.
 
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yorkie

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So you’ve never, ever, made a heat-of-the-moment misjudgement at work when in a stressful or heated situation?

No one is saying it’s right or should be tolerated, however people need to think a little before jumping on the instant dismissal bandwagon. In most workplaces people are given an opportunity its to improve before being dismissed, even after some pretty bad things. A final warning accompanied by some conflict management training would be a quite reasonable course of action, assuming the member of staff has an otherwise good record.
Everyone makes mistakes but anyone in a customer facing job can expect the sack for this.

There is absolutely no way that a "final warning" would be appropriate if I had behaved as depicted in the video.

If you think that it would be appropriate, then I would have to seriously question your judgement.
 

Ethano92

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Would you be saying the same thing if the roles were reversed? I suspect not.
Agreed, although I do agree that video didn't show the full story,I still wonder that if in the same 11 second clip, it was the man getting aggressive towards the station staff people would maintain the same 'skeptical' tone towards the video . Of course you can argue it's different because it becomes a matter of safety at work but at the end of the day, in any customer service role whether station staff or working at Sainsbury's, is the language and aggression shown tolerable in the slightest? I think not (unless he was an immediate threat to your safety but in that example you wouldn't scream like that to aggravate the guy).

There still must've been some backstory because you don't get angry like that out of just an annoying customer.
 

yorkie

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It doesn't matter what the "backstory" is: the behaviour is totally unacceptable and any of us who are in responsible jobs can tell you categorically we would be sacked if we behaved like that.

I've had to deal with all sorts of challenging behaviour in one or two of the various jobs I've done; if you are going to react like that then you are not the right person for a customer facing job.
 

bramling

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Everyone makes mistakes but anyone in a customer facing job can expect the sack for this.

There is absolutely no way that a "final warning" would be appropriate if I had behaved as depicted in the video.

If you think that it would be appropriate, then I would have to seriously question your judgement.

And by the same token I would have to seriously question your judgement in people management. Fact is people *do* make errors of judgement, and for those involved in people management these sorts of situations crop up on a regular basis, where someone has done something or other. There is absolutely no value at all in getting rid of someone who has years of distinguished service who has made one mistake when under stress, and for all we know could have other issues going on.

I’m not saying that dismissal isn’t necessarily an appropriate option, but a more nuanced approach is certainly appropriate. This is, in any case, almost certainly what will happen - as any dismissal would follow a full investigation and disciplinary hearing, where the full case would be heard by a panel. Any other way would risk an employment tribunal.

I’ve recently been involved in a case where a member of staff was heading for guaranteed dismissal - in the event he was advised to resign and chose to do so. Even though the member of staff thoroughly deserved this outcome, and totally did not help his situation by the way he behaved after the initial incident, it’s still nothing to gloat about.
 

aye2beeviasea

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I've been counting the number of actual witness statements in the media that contradict the victims story or suggest that he contributed in any way whatsoever to the assault by the railway employee. So far I've got to a total of zero.

I wonder if any of the people fabricating accusations against him have any family who've been the victims of crime. Was it all their own fault too?
 

Stigy

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Why shouldn't he put it on social media? If you want to go back to the dark ages forums like won't exist.
Why should somebody be plastered all over social media such as YouTube if they haven’t given consent? I believe there’s legislation that covers this, however enforcement would be nye on impossible given how ‘normal’ it is for this to occur these days.

People are far too quick to whip the phone out and start filming these days. I have no issue with being filmed, in fact I’m disappointed I’ve never ended up on YouTube, however, I can see why some object. To act like the staff member in this situation when you know you’re being filmed, unfortunately is professional suicide, no matter what occurred prior to the filming. Rule of thumb when being filmed - be extra professional. People unfortunately end up looking silly when they’re being filmed, often playing in to the “journalist’s” hands. See it all the time with Police officers who actually forget they actually know more about the law than the spotty teenager filming them.
 

Bletchleyite

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So you’ve never, ever, made a heat-of-the-moment misjudgement at work when in a stressful or heated situation?

I've never engaged in physical violence against someone at work, no. And if I did I'd expect to be sacked on the spot and marched off the premises.

I've certainly had "spirited" verbal discussions with people about issues, but that's, to use a slightly hackneyed phrase, because we're all passionate about what we do and may have strong views on how to achieve something. But once it turns personal it's gone too far, and that's simply not how you conduct yourself at work.

While it'd have looked poor, they could have had a shouting match through the glass for all I care. But the second his hand went onto the booking office door handle, the game was up.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Fact is people *do* make errors of judgement

Indeed they do. Some of them make an error of judgement and in doing so commit murder (I fail to see how the commission of murder could be anything other than a very serious error of judgement). When they do, they get sent down for a long time. They don't get let off because they knifed someone to death in the heat of the moment, and quite rightly not.

OK, an extreme argument, but if you want to keep your job you simply don't do this kind of thing.

Think Clarkson. The BBC shot themselves in the foot financially by sacking him. But they simply couldn't allow someone who had conducted themselves in that manner to remain within their organisation.
 

yorkie

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And by the same token I would have to seriously question your judgement in people management.
That's your right, though I find it amusing that you draw that conclusion.
Fact is people *do* make errors of judgement, and for those involved in people management these sorts of situations crop up on a regular basis, where someone has done something or other. There is absolutely no value at all in getting rid of someone who has years of distinguished service who has made one mistake when under stress, and for all we know could have other issues going on.
There is absolutely zero prospect of an employee in any decent organisation being able to behave like that and not be sacked. Yes, the processes would have to be carried out properly, but that's always going to be the outcome.

How anyone can watch that video and not come to that conclusion I have no idea but it just demonstrates a lack of good judgement on their part.
I’m not saying that dismissal isn’t necessarily an appropriate option, but a more nuanced approach is certainly appropriate. This is, in any case, almost certainly what will happen - as any dismissal would follow a full investigation and disciplinary hearing, where the full case would be heard by a panel. Any other way would risk an employment tribunal.
The ultimate outcome cannot be anything other than dismissal for something as serious as this.
I’ve recently been involved in a case where a member of staff was heading for guaranteed dismissal - in the event he was advised to resign and chose to do so. Even though the member of staff thoroughly deserved this outcome, and totally did not help his situation by the way he behaved after the initial incident, it’s still nothing to gloat about.
Yes I'd be resigning immediately if I had done what is depicted in the video.
I've been counting the number of actual witness statements in the media that contradict the victims story or suggest that he contributed in any way whatsoever to the assault by the railway employee. So far I've got to a total of zero.

I wonder if any of the people fabricating accusations against him have any family who've been the victims of crime. Was it all their own fault too?
It's pretty obvious what the agenda of those people is.

If the boot had been on the other foot, those people would not be making the same arguments, as it wouldn't suit their agenda.
Why should somebody be plastered all over social media such as YouTube if they haven’t given consent?
Consent isn't required for this; newspapers have published the material and they are not breaking the law by doing so.
I believe there’s legislation that covers this, however enforcement would be nye on impossible given how ‘normal’ it is for this to occur these days.
If you think those publications are breaking the law, I invite you to state what laws they are breaking.
People are far too quick to whip the phone out and start filming these days.
Are you suggesting that the employee may acted as he did to 'punish' the victim for filming?

Or are you saying that the employee's actions may have happened regardless, but it would have been better if the video evidence was not obtained?


I have no issue with being filmed, in fact I’m disappointed I’ve never ended up on YouTube, however, I can see why some object. To act like the staff member in this situation when you know you’re being filmed, unfortunately is professional suicide, no matter what occurred prior to the filming. Rule of thumb when being filmed - be extra professional.
Exactly! If the employee had done this, none of us would have seen any video and the whole incident would never have happened. However the employee acted in a manner for which the word unprofessional would be the understatement of the century.
 

Antman

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I've been counting the number of actual witness statements in the media that contradict the victims story or suggest that he contributed in any way whatsoever to the assault by the railway employee. So far I've got to a total of zero.

I wonder if any of the people fabricating accusations against him have any family who've been the victims of crime. Was it all their own fault too?

Presumably there were no witnesses?

Why should somebody be plastered all over social media such as YouTube if they haven’t given consent? I believe there’s legislation that covers this, however enforcement would be nye on impossible given how ‘normal’ it is for this to occur these days.

People are far too quick to whip the phone out and start filming these days. I have no issue with being filmed, in fact I’m disappointed I’ve never ended up on YouTube, however, I can see why some object. To act like the staff member in this situation when you know you’re being filmed, unfortunately is professional suicide, no matter what occurred prior to the filming. Rule of thumb when being filmed - be extra professional. People unfortunately end up looking silly when they’re being filmed, often playing in to the “journalist’s” hands. See it all the time with Police officers who actually forget they actually know more about the law than the spotty teenager filming them.

Well that's the way of things nowadays, years ago somebody would have probably got away with something like this as it would have been one person's word against another.
 

Stigy

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Consent isn't required for this; newspapers have published the material and they are not breaking the law by doing so.

If you think those publications are breaking the law, I invite you to state what laws they are breaking.
I don’t know which laws they may or may not be breaking to be honest, maybe I was mistaken? That’s why I said “I believe”

Are you suggesting that the employee may acted as he did to 'punish' the victim for filming?

Or are you saying that the employee's actions may have happened regardless, but it would have been better if the video evidence was not obtained?
.
Neither. I’m saying that people are too quick to get their phones out and start filming, and whatever wound the staff member up, clearly happened pre-recording. I’m also not trying to justify the employee’s actions.
 

yorkie

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I don’t know which laws they may or may not be breaking to be honest, maybe I was mistaken? That’s why I said “I believe”
Yes you are; no worries.

Neither. I’m saying that people are too quick to get their phones out and start filming, and whatever wound the staff member up, clearly happened pre-recording.
Weren't they too slow in that case? I'm struggling to understand your 'too quick' argument.
 

Wombat

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I’m saying that people are too quick to get their phones out and start filming
I can't agree with that. Without filming we often have a "he said/she said" situation which takes us nowhere, and social media is vastly more effective in exposing wrongdoing than a letter to the company which can be quietly swept under the carpet. I'm entirely in favour of complaints being made in a public forum every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I'd like to see the rest of the video, as I imagine that the snippet provided has been carefully selected. Nevertheless, if the situation was reversed and a passenger was charging towards a member of staff and shouting abuse, I suspect we wouldn't be seeing many suggestions that the passenger had been provoked beyond the limits of endurance.
 

farleigh

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So you’ve never, ever, made a heat-of-the-moment misjudgement at work when in a stressful or heated situation?

No one is saying it’s right or should be tolerated, however people need to think a little before jumping on the instant dismissal bandwagon. In most workplaces people are given an opportunity its to improve before being dismissed, even after some pretty bad things. A final warning accompanied by some conflict management training would be a quite reasonable course of action, assuming the member of staff has an otherwise good record.
Oh I have made mistakes - I am far from perfect. And I have paid the price and never griped about it.

I am not saying he should be sacked - rather that he would be sacked in any organisation that had a pride in its own workforce.

His behaviour was ridiculous. You just cannot do that in most organisations. Perhaps the railway tolerates it's employees behaving this way I don't know. I am sure he is a decent guy aside from this incident and I wish him no harm but to say you would put him on an improvement programme or suchlike is funny. IMO of course.
 

farleigh

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I can't agree with that. Without filming we often have a "he said/she said" situation which takes us nowhere, and social media is vastly more effective in exposing wrongdoing than a letter to the company which can be quietly swept under the carpet. I'm entirely in favour of complaints being made in a public forum every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

I'd like to see the rest of the video, as I imagine that the snippet provided has been carefully selected. Nevertheless, if the situation was reversed and a passenger was charging towards a member of staff and shouting abuse, I suspect we wouldn't be seeing many suggestions that the passenger had been provoked beyond the limits of endurance.
Exactly this - we would be reading post saying "My thoughts are with the employee and his colleagues"....etc.
rofl.gif
 

Stigy

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Yes you are; no worries.


Weren't they too slow in that case? I'm struggling to understand your 'too quick' argument.
Maybe, depends on how you look at it. What I meant was that something was said, pre-recording which obviously wound matters up, and once it’s at such a heightened level, the person whips the phone out and starts filming (sort of like, “Oh, he’s wound up so I’ll film this now”). It could have been either party who antagonised the other, we simply don’t know. On the whole, people reach for their phones before anything else, in any circumstances, it’s the way of the world, and not necessarily the right way to go about things.

No excuse for this behaviour, and staff should be able to deal with people, no matter how idiotic they are, in a professional manner.
 

yorkie

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I'm glad you agree there is no excuse for it.

It does sound like you'd rather the evidence wasn't obtained though?

When the filming starts, he initially shows his injury, presumably to demonstrate his point that he is injured, the camera then turns towards the inside of the ticket office. It's absolutely bizarre that the employee then comes out of the ticket office and behaves in the manner that he did.

But, rather than condemn the inexplicable behaviour in the video, it appears some people have a specific agenda to justify that behaviour by concentrating on what may or may not have happened to "provoke" such a reaction, even though nothing could ever justify such a reaction!

Their agenda would absolutely result in a very different argument if a customer had done this to a member of staff; the absolute opposite argument would be made and they would be arguing (rightly so) that an attack on a member of staff cannot be justified for any reason.
 
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gingerheid

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I’m saying that people are too quick to get their phones out and start filming, and whatever wound the staff member up, clearly happened pre-recording. I’m also not trying to justify the employee’s actions.

If you're being reasonable, and someone that's being unreasonable brings their phone out and starts filming, that's perfect. Either they're going to have to start being reasonable or they're gathering evidence against themselves!

In *every* circumstance the correct response to this is to carry on being reasonable.
 

Stigy

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I'm glad you agree there is no excuse for it.

It does sound like you'd rather the evidence wasn't obtained though?
Of course there’s no excuse for it, and I’ve never said otherwise.

Not what I’m saying at all regarding the evidence. I’m saying it’s wrong that certain people like to wind staff up, get a reaction, then film them. Or film them, get a reaction, then plaster social media with the evidence. Of course, it’s wrong if staff do the winding up too, which I appreciate does happen.
 

Bletchleyite

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In *every* circumstance the correct response to this is to carry on being reasonable.

Or if you're about to lose your rag, remove yourself from the situation (in this case by pulling down the blind/shutter and closing the ticket office, or as another example if you're on a call to a customer terminating the call).
 

Bletchleyite

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Not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying it’s wrong that certain people like to wind staff up, get a reaction, then film them. Or film them, get a reaction, then plaster social media with the evidence.

I agree. Two wrongs, however, do not make a right.

It's not OK to abuse/wind up staff. It's also not OK to assault passengers. Neither makes the other more acceptable, both are completely unacceptable.
 

yorkie

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Not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying it’s wrong that certain people like to wind staff up, get a reaction, then film them. Or film them, get a reaction, then plaster social media with the evidence.
If someone is winding staff up, then that needs to be dealt with appropriately and professionally.

As you said yourself, "Rule of thumb when being filmed - be extra professional.". which is sound advice. It makes zero sense to assault someone instead of following your advice of being extra professional, and anyone who assaults someone with clear evidence of this will find their position of employment untenable.

I don't really understand how we can be in disagreement? Surely it's obvious?
 

Stigy

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If someone is winding staff up, then that needs to be dealt with appropriately and professionally.

As you said yourself, "Rule of thumb when being filmed - be extra professional.". which is sound advice. It makes zero sense to assault someone instead of following your advice of being extra professional, and anyone who assaults someone with clear evidence of this will find their position of employment untenable.

I don't really understand how we can be in disagreement? Surely it's obvious?
We’re not in disagreement about the incident or indeed how it should have been dealt with.
 

bramling

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I've been counting the number of actual witness statements in the media that contradict the victims story or suggest that he contributed in any way whatsoever to the assault by the railway employee. So far I've got to a total of zero.

Although High Brooms is far from sleepy, how many people would necessarily have been around? I don’t think much can be inferred from the apparent lack of witnesses, one way or other. CCTV will presumably have been available to both the BTP and the TOC managers investigating. There doesn’t seem to be mention of BTP making any arrests?
 

bramling

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I agree. Two wrongs, however, do not make a right.

It's not OK to abuse/wind up staff. It's also not OK to assault passengers. Neither makes the other more acceptable, both are completely unacceptable.

I can understand how shoving a camera in someone’s face at close range would not be well received, and I can well understand how this might get someone’s back up sufficiently to provoke a bad reaction. Try doing it to the average person on the street and see what happens.

It’s a trend I wish would end, though sadly it won’t. I remember an incident a couple of years ago where a gentleman sadly died of a heart stack in a station booking hall. Unbelievably, whilst the ambulance crew were trying to save the gentleman people were gathering round filming it on their camera phones. Ironically, the BTP’s reaction was very similar indeed to what we heard at High Brooms, albeit with a bit added on to the end mentioning what would happen if they didn’t.

As an aside, and something which has a vested interest for many of us here, it’s a trend which could well one day be used as justification for a total ban on all photography whilst on railway property.
 
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