23% of professional drivers base level crossing decisions on timetable knowledge

Adlington · 14 Jun 2019

https://www.railjournal.com/infrast...el-crossing-decisions-on-timetable-knowledge/

The study, commissioned for International Level Crossing Day (Ilcad) on June 6, which this year is targeted at professional drivers, found 23% admitted that if they knew the train timetable and did not believe a train was due to arrive, they would drive over a level crossing.

The most common reasons cited for taking the risk was running late to make a delivery (12%) or a desire to finish work and get home early (16%), despite an overwhelming majority of drivers knowing that they are required to stop for the warning lights at level crossings.

I don't know whether to condemn their stupidity, or admire their timetable knowledge skills...

RailUK Forums

Spartacus · 14 Jun 2019

23% of drivers are imbeciles then. Have they never heard of late trains? Not to mention freights, empties, specials etc etc....

I really am amazed it's so high, even though I'm well aware that there's a high proportion of level crossing incidents involving late trains or those not in the public timetable.

westv · 14 Jun 2019

Professional drivers? Obviously familiarity breeds contempt.

Antman · 14 Jun 2019

I find this difficult to believe quite honestly.

AlterEgo · 14 Jun 2019

Is there a link to the study and its methodology anywhere?

broadgage · 14 Jun 2019

Might the study or survey have been international ?
Some lines overseas have only a very limited service. "the afternoon train has gone, so it must be OK"
In the UK, it would be a considerable feat of memory to remember a frequent and often not clockface timetable.

Adlington · 14 Jun 2019

broadgage said:
Might the study or survey have been international ?

The study was commissioned by Network Rail, so it's probably not international.

broadgage said:
Some lines overseas have only a very limited service. "the afternoon train has gone, so it must be OK"

That's true if you count Scotland as "abroad", though not "overseas"

Spartacus · 14 Jun 2019

Adlington said:
That's true if you count Scotland as "abroad", though not "overseas"

Then you get hit by the 37 doing a route refresher for snowplough duty, which I've known happen.

I guess some of them aren't necessarily going to think they know the timetable, but perhaps might think they know when the last train is. That sealed the fate of the girl near Halifax and a couple of thieves escaping on the line near Cardiff a few years ago. Both incidents had survivors who said they didn't think trains ran then.

The daft thing is that a lot of this is going on at crossings controlled by barriers and/or lights: you have to wonder what's going through those people's minds'? The barriers are down but there's not a train due so I'll be ok?

Chester1 · 14 Jun 2019

I believe the figure is relatively accurate. There are plenty of stupid people around. Its easy to see why Network Rail appear to be on a crusade to close level crossings.

Lockwood · 14 Jun 2019

When I worked out of Chertsey, I would often have to cross Addlestone. I would make a decision on whether to go from Tesco and that area to Weybridge via the level crossing or the Chertsey Fire roundabout based on the train times - I knew at the time that there were services scheduled for 04, 08, 34 and 38. So, at 02-10 and 32-40 I would aim to go around, and the rest of the time I would aim for that route if I was having to travel quickly to get past - if it was near the 08/38 and I wasn't having to drive against the clock I would sit out the tail end of the queue. I think I only got stuck at the crossing as the driver once when I was needing to get to the other side in a hurry from a late running service.

I never misused the crossing, but I did certainly base my routing decision off of the train times.

underbank · 14 Jun 2019

What is a "professional driver"? A "profession" usually means years of relevant experience AND professional standard exams. HGV and PSV drivers are maybe "professional", but your bog-standard van or taxi driver isn't a "professional" - they're just people who do a lot of driving.

Surreytraveller · 14 Jun 2019

underbank said:
What is a "professional driver"? A "profession" usually means years of relevant experience AND professional standard exams. HGV and PSV drivers are maybe "professional", but your bog-standard van or taxi driver isn't a "professional" - they're just people who do a lot of driving.

A presume a professional driver is someone with a licence that allows them to drive something bigger than a car, such as a bus or lorry, or someone with specialist training such as the police or other emergency services

Stigy · 14 Jun 2019

I’m not sure I understand this to be honest. They’re presumably saying that 23% misuse the crossing based on their timetable knowledge? Yet to misuse a crossing they’d be jumping the lights etc? This would suggest there’s most definitely a train coming unless there’s a fault? Or are they suggesting they stop on the crossing without it being clear, because they don’t believe the barriers will be lowered?

3141 · 14 Jun 2019

Stigy said:
I’m not sure I understand this to be honest. They’re presumably saying that 23% misuse the crossing based on their timetable knowledge? Yet to misuse a crossing they’d be jumping the lights etc? This would suggest there’s most definitely a train coming unless there’s a fault? Or are they suggesting they stop on the crossing without it being clear, because they don’t believe the barriers will be lowered?

I agree with you that it's unclear. I think the questions in the survey may have been badly phrased, or else the answers have been misinterpreted. "23% admitted that if they knew the train timetable and did not believe a train was due to arrive, they would drive over a level crossing." If a question asked "If you knew the train timetable and did not believe a train was due to arrive, would you drive over a level crossing?", the 23% who answered "Yes" may have done so without appreciating that either it would be safe to do so anyway (barriers up or lights not showing), or they'd be breaking the law by driving dangerously across when the lights were showing or the barriers were down. ("I know the timetable for this line so well that I don't believe those lights should be on right now.") There are total imbeciles in all walks of life, but I wouldn't have thought that "professional drivers" were outstandingly awful in that respect.

underbank · 14 Jun 2019

3141 said:
There are total imbeciles in all walks of life, but I wouldn't have thought that "professional drivers" were outstandingly awful in that respect.

Considering the amount of bridge strikes by so-called professional bus and lorry drivers, nothing would surprise me.

edwin_m · 14 Jun 2019

3141 said:
If a question asked "If you knew the train timetable and did not believe a train was due to arrive, would you drive over a level crossing?", the 23% who answered "Yes" may have done so without appreciating that either it would be safe to do so anyway (barriers up or lights not showing), or they'd be breaking the law by driving dangerously across when the lights were showing or the barriers were down. ("I know the timetable for this line so well that I don't believe those lights should be on right now.") There are total imbeciles in all walks of life, but I wouldn't have thought that "professional drivers" were outstandingly awful in that respect.

Good point. If the question was like that then many could have answered yes when in reality they would have no idea of what the timetable was, so when they came to a crossing they wouldn't know whether it was "safe" to misuse it. To be credible the question should have been something like "Have you recently driven over a level crossing with the warning/stop lights operating because you knew the timetable and did not believe a train was due to arrive?".

Essan · 14 Jun 2019

Yes, I think the key word here is "if". They are not saying that they have ever done it.

The other point being how do you drive over a level crossing if the barriers are down?

transmanche · 14 Jun 2019

Essan said:
The other point being how do you drive over a level crossing if the barriers are down?

I think the first clip shows...

mmh · 14 Jun 2019

underbank said:
What is a "professional driver"? A "profession" usually means years of relevant experience AND professional standard exams. HGV and PSV drivers are maybe "professional", but your bog-standard van or taxi driver isn't a "professional" - they're just people who do a lot of driving.

Have fun telling people who've done the Knowledge that they're not professional drivers, they just drive a lot!

Llanigraham · 14 Jun 2019

I cite the old lady going to Chapel near Harlech one Sunday morning who got hit by a tamper and told that Police that trains didn't run over that line on Sunday mornings! She even had a copy of the timetable on her dashboard.

broadgage · 14 Jun 2019

underbank said:
Considering the amount of bridge strikes by so-called professional bus and lorry drivers, nothing would surprise me.

Very true.

Bookd · 15 Jun 2019

Lockwood said:
When I worked out of Chertsey, I would often have to cross Addlestone. I would make a decision on whether to go from Tesco and that area to Weybridge via the level crossing or the Chertsey Fire roundabout based on the train times - I knew at the time that there were services scheduled for 04, 08, 34 and 38. So, at 02-10 and 32-40 I would aim to go around, and the rest of the time I would aim for that route if I was having to travel quickly to get past - if it was near the 08/38 and I wasn't having to drive against the clock I would sit out the tail end of the queue. I think I only got stuck at the crossing as the driver once when I was needing to get to the other side in a hurry from a late running service.

I never misused the crossing, but I did certainly base my routing decision off of the train times.

That particular crossing has a useful feature, admittedly from the Weybridge direction, given that when the crossing is clear there is little to choose between the routes. There is (or was) a digital sign on the road from Weybridge to show that the crossing was about to close (probably for about 5 minutes as there are trains in both directions) and advising drivers to go the other way.

GlosRail · 15 Jun 2019

Now I plan my way home from work and go a slightly longer way if I finish work at .45 past the hour as I know I will most likely to stuck at a level crossing for up to 5 minutes as 2 trains in either direction are due, but if I finish work 10 or 15 minutes later it's normally quicker for me to go over the level crossing as the chances are it will be clear, so I am using timetable knowledge to decide on the best route home.

I would never attempt to cross if the lights were on, I wouldn't be able to anyway as it's a full barrier crossing.

6Gman · 15 Jun 2019

Llanigraham said:
I cite the old lady going to Chapel near Harlech one Sunday morning who got hit by a tamper and told that Police that trains didn't run over that line on Sunday mornings! She even had a copy of the timetable on her dashboard.

I can - sort of - understand regular users on very lightly-trafficked routes (farmers north of Dingwall, or your old lady on a Sunday morning) having an awareness of times when "trains don't run" (though it's still a very foolish assumption).

But 23% ? Sceptical without the methodology.

Lockwood · 15 Jun 2019

Bookd said:
That particular crossing has a useful feature, admittedly from the Weybridge direction, given that when the crossing is clear there is little to choose between the routes. There is (or was) a digital sign on the road from Weybridge to show that the crossing was about to close (probably for about 5 minutes as there are trains in both directions) and advising drivers to go the other way.

That is a nice feature, still there last time I was up that way (a while back now), but annoyingly the majority of the time going from Weybridge I would have been going to St Peter's so wouldn't have needed that warning. Just passing it and thinking "if only there was one the other side"

Grannyjoans · 16 Jun 2019

A lot of level crossings are on relatively quiet branch lines. Most main lines don't have them.

There is no freight, empty stock moves, parcels, light engines, etc.

The services on these quiet branch lines generally run on time as well.

I can believe this.

DanDaDriver · 16 Jun 2019

Grannyjoans said:
A lot of level crossings are on relatively quiet branch lines. Most main lines don't have them. Which one has no level crossing?

There is no freight, empty stock moves, parcels, light engines, etc. How do you know? How does the line get tamped for example? Are you sure the line isn’t a seldom used freight diversion? What if something breaks down and needs rescuing? What will be sent to recover it?

The services on these quiet branch lines generally run on time as well. And that’s how you get killed.

I can believe this. Sadly, I can too. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Hmmmm

Sheepy1209 · 16 Jun 2019

I take these surveys with a pinch of salt unless the original questions and responses are provided, as the wording used in the media report can be very carefully used to give the message the sponsor is looking for. It doesn't say 'cross when lights are flashing or barriers are down', it simply says 'cross' (or 'drive over').

The reason for my cynicism is that I responded in good faith to a survey sponsored by the RAC about cycling, and one of the questions was about traffic lights (NOT level crossings!) - I responded, accurately, that at least once (in my 40 years of cycling) I had crossed a red light because after waiting it was clear it wasn't going to change to green (a common problem when the roads are quiet, and one in which the light can be deemed to be faulty).

That was included by the RAC in the 'xx% of cyclists JUMP red lights' headline (it was challenged by one of the cycling bodies but by then it was too late). Note use of the present tense (the question was 'have you ever?') and the emotive term 'jump'.

I find the headline in this article hard to believe and I suspect it's been distorted for shock value.

(Edited to point out that I know there will be cyclist-haters on here who will choose to shout me down as a reckless law-breaker - so don't waste your energy turning this into an anti-cycling thread).

GB · 16 Jun 2019

Grannyjoans said:
A lot of level crossings are on relatively quiet branch lines. Most main lines don't have them.

There is no freight, empty stock moves, parcels, light engines, etc.

The services on these quiet branch lines generally run on time as well.

I can believe this.

Exactly the kind of attitude and thinking that gets people into this sort of trouble in the first place!

GB · 16 Jun 2019

underbank said:
What is a "professional driver"? A "profession" usually means years of relevant experience AND professional standard exams. HGV and PSV drivers are maybe "professional", but your bog-standard van or taxi driver isn't a "professional" - they're just people who do a lot of driving.

I would class a professional driver as anyone that is driving a company vehicle as part of their profession, without which they could not do their job.

23% of professional drivers base level crossing decisions on timetable knowledge

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