Did Mk2's & Mk3's ever run together?

Firstof5 · 15 Jun 2019

The Northen Belle has a few mk3 sleepers as well as mk1 kitchens and mk2 coaches.

RailUK Forums

hexagon789 · 15 Jun 2019

driver_m said:
Probably another question to ask in a separate topic really. But in the early days did mk3s ever appear on more localised services? The sort of service with say a 31 or 37 load 4? Or a TPE service? Basically anything non-intercity!

They were pretty much exclusively WCML expresses under BR with the exception of the small number used by ScotRail.

route:oxford · 15 Jun 2019

Clansman said:
How the 150s were thought of as suitable for such journeys is absolutely mind boggling. To think as well that 150001 stood in for LHCS on a number of them all across the country!

The 158s were considered too dangerous to use at the time after their emergency withdrawal...

It was a case of any working unit that could be pressed into service did any working diagram. The 156s, when new, could quite readily do 90mph and just about keep up with 158 timings on journeys with few stops.

I recall a lively ride on a heritage unit from Perth to Stirling, with my ears "popping" in the Kippenross tunnel.

Devonman2014 · 15 Jun 2019

Cowley said:
Thanks Hexagon.
I actually remember sitting on the platform at St David’s as a young teenager in about 1986 frantically trying to write the numbers down of these mk3s with actual names. I’d never seen such a thing!
About a year later I was lucky enough to see the mk2 Pullman set somewhere (not down here though that’s for sure).

Straying slightly off topic but there’s a very old thread here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/pullman-coaches.31111/

With an excellent post from Helvellyn explaining a bit about the mk2 and mk3 Pullmans.

I was 11 or 12 doing exactly the same at Exeter on a summer Saturday with them being hauled (from memory) by a pair of 31’s.

Also recall a Mk 3 set did a rose grove to Paignton and then ran ECS back to oxley in the afternoon or evening.

Few years ago and very good memories

hexagon789 · 15 Jun 2019

Devonman2014 said:
I was 11 or 12 doing exactly the same at Exeter on a summer Saturday with them being hauled (from memory) by a pair of 31’s.

Also recall a Mk 3 set did a rose grove to Paignton and then ran ECS back to oxley in the afternoon or evening.

Few years ago and very good memories

For 1986, Summer Saturday WCML set utilisation:

WB300 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO

-1V47 2326 FO Manchester Piccadilly- Paignton
-1M37 0820 SO Paignton-Manchester Piccadilly

WB302 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO

-5V36 0635 SO Euston Down Carriage Sidings- Milton Keynes
-1V36 0715 SO Milton Keynes-Penzance
-1M82 1540 SO Penzance-Milton Keynes
-5M82 2234 SO Milton Keynes-Euston Down Carriage Sidings

MA300 Mk2d BSO, 3 Mk3a TSO, Mk3a RFB, 3 Mk3b FO, RKB, Mk3b FO

-5F49 0700 SO Longsight Carriage Sidings-Liverpool Lime St
-1V49 0840 SO Liverpool Lime St-Paignton
-1M65 1625 SO Paignton-Liverpool Lime St
-5H47 2230 SO Liverpool Lime St-Longsight Carriage Sidings

Neptune · 15 Jun 2019

hexagon789 said:
156s from May to September. Even seen a photo of a Queen Street-Aberdeen diverted via Cumbernauld formed of a 150/2 leading a 156!

AFAIK the DBSOs remained Standard Class under Anglia, they are the reason why Greater Anglia Mk3 sets are unusual in having the DVT at the Standard Class end and the loco against First Class with the trains being propelled out of London rather than into.

Pre-Mk3 there were about 4 different Anglia formations, these are what I have for 2001:

2 Mk2f FO, Mk3a RFM, 3 Mk2e/f TSO, 2 Mk2f high-density TSO, DBSO

2*FO, RFB, 3 Mk2e/f TSO, 2 Mk2f high-density TSO, DBSO

2 Mk2f FO, Mk2e FO(T), 3 Mk2e/f TSO, 2 high-density Mk2f TSO, DBSO

2 Mk2f FO, 6 Mk2e/f TSO (mix of 64 and 74-seat versions), DBSO

I think the loco being on the south end of the rake was more to do with ease of swapping locos from Crown Point at Norwich.

hexagon789 · 15 Jun 2019

Neptune said:
I think the loco being on the south end of the rake was more to do with ease of swapping locos from Crown Point at Norwich.

Yes but having the DBSO with the TSOs meant that it had to be at the north-end to keep First Class at the London-end, that's what I meant, sorry.

Cowley · 15 Jun 2019

Devonman2014 said:
I was 11 or 12 doing exactly the same at Exeter on a summer Saturday with them being hauled (from memory) by a pair of 31’s.

Also recall a Mk 3 set did a rose grove to Paignton and then ran ECS back to oxley in the afternoon or evening.

Few years ago and very good memories

Absolutely. :smile:

Yes the Rose Grove was 31/4s, but I think a Peak might have appeared on it once or twice?

Taunton · 15 Jun 2019

Neptune said:
Yes. So long as all stock had air or dual brakes anything from mk1 through to mk3b could run in the same rake.

Yes. The big compatibility change was from 1967, when the Mk 2a stock (and thereafter) came with air brakes. Everything could run with everything else, and did, provided the brakes were compatible. There was actually very little dual-braked stock, it being a mechanical nuisance to arrange, and a lot of Mk 1 refreshment vehicles and vans were converted to air braking.

apinnard · 15 Jun 2019

Not totally on topic, but I seem to remember seeing Anglia using a MK1 restaurant vehicle in its MK2e/f sets until the very early 2000s.

ajrm · 16 Jun 2019

hexagon789 said:
To summarise some of the exceptions: there was a Mk3 set with a Mk2f FO at one point in the early 1980s standing in for a fire damaged Mk3 and Mk3 sets with Mk2d TSOT pre-roll out of push-pull to Aberdeen (after a very brief use of Mk1 RMBs). You had the odd mixed Mk3/Mk2d/e/f sets soon after push-pull was rolled out fully on Glasgow-Aberdeen in May 1985, and often mixed sets of Mk2f and Mk3 in early 1990 when vehicles were being released for InterCity. There were also 2 Mk3 diagrams on Glasgow-Aberdeen from 1980 right until the end of push-pull.

Admittedly the mixed sets were usually on Aberdeens except right at the end.

I don't remember the Mk 3 sets being all that regular on the Aberdeens but I was pretty young at the time admittedly. It was not unknown to see a Mark 3 sleeper in a push-pull formation—I think this was a balancing move to return the sleeper coach which went north on the last train from Glasgow. Also in the early days of the Aberdeen push-pulls they had a Mark 1 BG next to the loco.

hexagon789 · 16 Jun 2019

ajrm said:
I don't remember the Mk 3 sets being all that regular on the Aberdeens but I was pretty young at the time admittedly

2 return services from 1980 were a Mk3 set originally with a Mk1 RMB behind the loco, then a newly converted Mk2d TSOT. By the time of full push-pull operation to Aberdeen it was only a trolley service.

ajrm said:
It was not unknown to see a Mark 3 sleeper in a push-pull formation—I think this was a balancing move to return the sleeper coach which went north on the last train from Glasgow

Yes, the sleeper only ran Glasgow to Aberdeen, there was no return sleeper so the vehicle generally returned locked-out in the 1105 Mk3 set from Aberdeen.

ajrm said:
Also in the early days of the Aberdeen push-pulls they had a Mark 1 BG next to the loco.

Full push-pull working from Glasgow-Aberdeen commenced from May 1985 (Edinburgh-Aberdeen followed in May 1986), 3 sets were made up with Mk1 BG-3 Mk2d TSO, Mk2d TSOT, Mk2e FO, Mk2f DBSO. With the extension of push-pull to Edinburgh-Aberdeen the BGs were removed from the sets.

Ash Bridge · 16 Jun 2019

apinnard said:
Not totally on topic, but I seem to remember seeing Anglia using a MK1 restaurant vehicle in its MK2e/f sets until the very early 2000s.

Yes I think your memory is correct although I was remembering it as a mk1 RMB miniature buffet vehicle, surely one of the last if not the last mk1 catering cars in regular TOC service?

hexagon789 · 16 Jun 2019

Ash Bridge said:
Yes I think your memory is correct although I was remembering it as a mk1 RMB miniature buffet vehicle, surely one of the last if not the last mk1 catering cars in regular TOC service?

I think it was concluded in this thread that Anglia retained their last Mk1 RBR until 2000: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-loco-hauled-sets-after-privatisation.157570/

AndyB28 · 16 Jun 2019

stj said:
Until the start of 110mph running a full Mk3 set was rare with the exception of the mk 1 BG.Even a full Mk3 set would have a Mk2f first used as the Restaurant.I remember this was deliberate as it cost Travellers Fare less to use a Mk2f for some reason.

This certainly ties in with what I remember. As a teenager I used to do the Coventry to Birmingham NS run regularly (this would have been about 1980 give or take a year or two). I seem to recall the bulk of the rake were Mk3s but there nearly always seemed to be an older buffet car - although whether Mk1 or Mk2 I wouldn't have known.

Ash Bridge · 16 Jun 2019

hexagon789 said:
I think it was concluded in this thread that Anglia retained their last Mk1 RBR until 2000: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-loco-hauled-sets-after-privatisation.157570/

Ah yes; thanks, I'll have to confess to being a bit too lazy at the moment regarding doing a detailed search on the subject.

hexagon789 · 16 Jun 2019

Ash Bridge said:
Ah yes; thanks, I'll have to confess to being a bit too lazy at the moment regarding doing a detailed search on the subject.

I was half-amazed I found the thread tbh; the forum search isn't the greatest

hexagon789 · 16 Jun 2019

AndyB28 said:
although whether Mk1 or Mk2 I wouldn't have known.

Would be Mk1, the converted Mk2f buffet cars came later but were used in XC rather than WCML rakes.

Masboroughlad · 16 Jun 2019

Rail Blue Charters did.

nlogax · 17 Jun 2019

For some great examples of mixed Mk1/2d/3a+b rakes I'd recommend Alan Harrison's videos on YT. This one for example. Good example right at start and again at the 2:05 mark.

delt1c · 17 Jun 2019

jopsuk said:
The class 47 push-pull sets for Edinburgh-Glasgow and other Scottish IC routes were mixed Mark 2/3 from the off, given that they were a rake of mark 3s with a mark 2 DBSO. From what I can find, when the DBSOs went to Anglia (and became DBFOs) the formations there were mark 2 with (mainly) mark 3 catering vehicles- the entire British Rail mark 2 build had a tiny number of catering vehicles

They never became DBFO,s, Anglia had them reworked but they remained standard class

43096 · 17 Jun 2019

jopsuk said:
the entire British Rail mark 2 build had a tiny number of catering vehicles

So tiny, that precisely none were built as catering vehicles.

hexagon789 · 17 Jun 2019

43096 said:
So tiny, that precisely none were built as catering vehicles.

AFAIK the only new-build Mk2 catering vehicles were either NIR or IÉ, BR's all being conversions of course.

jopsuk · 18 Jun 2019

43096 said:
So tiny, that precisely none were built as catering vehicles.

wikipedia lists carriages 500-507 as being built as "Pullman Kitchen First", in the original Mark 2 batch (not even 2A)

hexagon789 · 18 Jun 2019

jopsuk said:
wikipedia lists carriages 500-507 as being built as "Pullman Kitchen First", in the original Mark 2 batch (not even 2A)

The vacuum-braked; air-conditioned Manchester Pullman Mk2 Pullmans iirc.

Did Mk2's & Mk3's ever run together?

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