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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

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Skimble19

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So the wifi and seat back table lottery continues

All southern trains now have wifi
As will all Great Northern trains once the 313s are finally gone*

*Excluding the two extra 365s that are still here on a short term lease.
 
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jon0844

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It seems the DfT now requires a base livery. TOCs can change it, but I assume that at the end of the franchise they not only have to remove their TOC logo but also anything else they've put on.

I have noticed that many 387s have been given deep cleans and are now white again. They make the dirty ones look about 20 years older!
 

700007

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Near a bunch of sheds that aren't 66s.
It seems the DfT now requires a base livery. TOCs can change it, but I assume that at the end of the franchise they not only have to remove their TOC logo but also anything else they've put on.

I have noticed that many 387s have been given deep cleans and are now white again. They make the dirty ones look about 20 years older!
They were constantly being put to shame in their filthy state when by passing gleaming 379s in the Cambridge area.
 

jon0844

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The seats are in very poor condition on the 700's.

Which units? Not yet seen any in what I'd regard as poor condition. A little wear on the bays where people have put their feet (and I think it wouldn't be outrageous to say that almost 50% of people on a bay will put their feet on the other seat if unoccupied) but that's all.
 

hwl

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It seems the DfT now requires a base livery. TOCs can change it, but I assume that at the end of the franchise they not only have to remove their TOC logo but also anything else they've put on.

I have noticed that many 387s have been given deep cleans and are now white again. They make the dirty ones look about 20 years older!
Is some of the reason for current dirt levels the lack of a washer at Cambridge for the time being?
 

jon0844

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When I was waiting for a train at WGC recently I noticed the train wash there was working again, so this may help keep some trains clean!
 

aleggatta

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I know that the chemical company for GTR was looking at making a new product for GTR in light of the state of the 700's, whether this was a washer chemical or a hand bash chemical I don't know, but there was scope for it being the new product used on all fleets. The same company was making a new liquid soap for GTR as the existing product was not suitable for the relatively low temperatures being provided by the water heaters in the 700's/387's compared to the 377's and causing blockages in the drainage from not being washed away completely.
 

Aictos

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Which units? Not yet seen any in what I'd regard as poor condition. A little wear on the bays where people have put their feet (and I think it wouldn't be outrageous to say that almost 50% of people on a bay will put their feet on the other seat if unoccupied) but that's all.

In three weeks I've only seen two Class 700s missing a seat cushion so considering the size of the fleet I think that's good going and no the seats are nowhere near being in a bad condition, although it would help if undesirables didn't use them as a footrest - that isn't something that just Chavs do either!
 

NeilWatson

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I travelled past Cricklewood depot this morning, can anyone tell me why each set appears to have a small illuminated searchlight on the roof?

FWIW I thought the seats on the stock were very comfortable!
 

Aictos

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I travelled past Cricklewood depot this morning, can anyone tell me why each set appears to have a small illuminated searchlight on the roof?

FWIW I thought the seats on the stock were very comfortable!

Simple, the Class 700s have the ability to record OHL infrastructure in much the same way that the Network Rail test trains do - that's the most simple of explanations that I can give.
 

MatthewRead

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Which units? Not yet seen any in what I'd regard as poor condition. A little wear on the bays where people have put their feet (and I think it wouldn't be outrageous to say that almost 50% of people on a bay will put their feet on the other seat if unoccupied) but that's all.
I traveled on one from Bickley to Bromley South and the seats were already dirty and dusty but that is probably due to the material used as it's the same in the 377's and on the 387's.
 

westcoaster

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I traveled on one from Bickley to Bromley South and the seats were already dirty and dusty but that is probably due to the material used as it's the same in the 377's and on the 387's.
Sounds like you have been on one where, someone has hit the seat to cause the dust to come out.
 

387star

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A very strange and annoying situation that it remains hit and miss whether you will get wifi or a seat back table depending on the number at the front
 

MML

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A very strange and annoying situation that it remains hit and miss whether you will get wifi or a seat back table depending on the number at the front
I agree. Very hit and miss.
Just goes to show if it isn't in the specification at initial delivery, then it will never get done.
We heard claims of retrofit but I imagine that was nothing more than GTR spin.
I'm still waiting to find out where GTR are going to spend the £15m fine on passenger improvements. Probably end up as a bonus for the management rather than something of value to passengers.
 

Skimble19

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I agrees. Very hit and miss.
Just goes to show if it isn't in the specification at initial delivery, then it will never get done.
We heard claims of retrofit but I imagine that was nothing more than GTR spin.
I'm still waiting to find out where GTR are going to spend the £15m fine on passenger improvements. Probably end up as a bonus for the management rather than something of value to passengers.
I suggest you visit this site and give some ideas then:

https://www.passengerbenefitfund.co.uk
 

Aictos

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I suggest you visit this site and give some ideas then:

https://www.passengerbenefitfund.co.uk

Good to see Luton gets ignored with St Albans getting picked instead despite Luton actually having IC services... Plus GTR could have had a session at Luton to cover Parkway at the same time...

As to the funds available, I rather they just got on and gave Luton fully step free access between street and platforms especially with the narrow stairs to the platforms but I guess as that's a DfT scheme it's a case of waiting for the money to be released eventually....

They could also expand the wifi at stations that already have it to improve the coverage as there are some areas on stations which struggle to get it with black holes but not sure if that comes under GTR or O2?
 

Skimble19

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They could also expand the wifi at stations that already have it to improve the coverage as there are some areas on stations which struggle to get it with black holes but not sure if that comes under GTR or O2?
Bit of both, pop it down as an idea - you never know, might get sorted if you give specific stations as shouldn't cost much and is an "easy win".

Slightly more on topic, I wonder how many people will use this to suggest seat back tables and WiFi are fitted to the remaining 700s that never got it.
 

AM9

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I agree. Very hit and miss.
Just goes to show if it isn't in the specification at initial delivery, then it will never get done.
We heard claims of retrofit but I imagine that was nothing more than GTR spin.
I'm still waiting to find out where GTR are going to spend the £15m fine on passenger improvements. Probably end up as a bonus for the management rather than something of value to passengers.
As I suggested at the time, the tables thing was a sop to the continuous bleating about having nowhere to put coffee cups. A local politician eventually claimed credit for getting the additions started, the programme was started and the bleating stopped. So the problem for GTR went away.
 

Aictos

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Bit of both, pop it down as an idea - you never know, might get sorted if you give specific stations as shouldn't cost much and is an "easy win".

Slightly more on topic, I wonder how many people will use this to suggest seat back tables and WiFi are fitted to the remaining 700s that never got it.

Indeed, which is what I've done!

As to seat back tables and onboard wifi, the limit of 50MB is really poor - can't they raise that?
 

samuelmorris

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As I suggested at the time, the tables thing was a sop to the continuous bleating about having nowhere to put coffee cups. A local politician eventually claimed credit for getting the additions started, the programme was started and the bleating stopped. So the problem for GTR went away.
I take it you're not a fan of the idea then? To start upgrading a fleet, whatever the job entails, in response to a demand from somewhere, then to stop halfway because they're not looking is rather disingenuous to me. It's not like I need the tables but I do feel they're appropriate on the routes 700/1s operate (I'm not a coffee drinker but I find they make working from a laptop much easier) and I'm content to not have them fitted on the 700/0s for the much lower likelihood of people traveling a long distance on the routes they serve, but don't just do a few units and then quietly hope it's forgotten about, that's just purile.
 

MML

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Thanks Skimble19, I'll give it a go.
I just hope £14 million isn't spent on the consultation, leaving only £1 million for the physical improvements.

It seems coffee drinkers with the lack of tables now place their cups on the floor.
Luckily, there are no smelly carpets. But you do have to watch out for the occasional tidal wave of spilled coffee working its way down the carriage under your feet when the cups are kicked over.
 
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AM9

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I take it you're not a fan of the idea then? To start upgrading a fleet, whatever the job entails, in response to a demand from somewhere, then to stop halfway because they're not looking is rather disingenuous to me. It's not like I need the tables but I do feel they're appropriate on the routes 700/1s operate (I'm not a coffee drinker but I find they make working from a laptop much easier) and I'm content to not have them fitted on the 700/0s for the much lower likelihood of people traveling a long distance on the routes they serve, but don't just do a few units and then quietly hope it's forgotten about, that's just purile.
I thnk that there are much more important issues than table, seats lining up with windows, power outlets etc., (however I do regard wi-fi more relevant to modern rail travel especially as TOCs seem to be increasingly using the internet as the primary channnel for informing passengers of things that affect their journeys). The most important issue with very busy commuters lines e.g. Thameslink is to ensure that there is sufficient space for passengers to actually board and reach their destination safely, which give the continuing rise in demand on Thameslink, the class 700s have for the present at least seem to have provided the necessary capacity. They are after all, good at moving incredible numbers of people with the minimum of fuss. There, (hopefully) will continue to fulfil that role over the next 30 years or so when passenger demand is expected to rise even further.
When details of the class 700's design were released, there was a long discussion on this forum about the 2+2 seating, the through gangways, wide (and fast) sliding doors which a leading poster who obviously had inside knowledge of the decisions that led to the design (and no longer posts on the subject), gave much of the background to the issues. The explanation was that with the extreme demands on TL route capacity, dwell times were critical to throughput and maintaining smooth running to timetable. Thus, everything that could be shown to affect those ingress and egress flows was considered (apparently after tests and crowd modelling), resulting in a train design that delivered on capacity.
When the trains were delivered there was a noisy chorus of complaints (which usually accompanies any new train introduction)) - e.g. clsses 345, 80x, 710 etc., (and I wait in expectation of the clamour of personalised criticisms of the Stadtler and Aventra introductions on GA, and the CAFs on Northern services). In the case of the the class 700s, the firm seats, reduction in width to acheive the wide aisles and of course the lack of charging points and tables that were to many, more important than any capacity issues. The invective from some was almost unbelieveable. Presumably, they were from travellers who generally were already able to get seats because of when they travelled and/or where they boarded. They were either oblivious to those who just couldn't board at all, - or only ever considered their wishes as of any importance.
When the noise reached the ears of local politicians, they saw a channel for self-promotion in taking up the case for their 'long-suffering' constituents. GTR, like some other TOCs had been under pressure for many aspects of their performance saw the table issue as a relatively minor distraction that they could be seen to be responding to so fixing tables in the last batches of trains was undertaken. It was almost amusing how various posters claimed that trains on their services needed the tables. In reality of course the trains are a common stock and rotate between GN/MML and metro/outer suburban* as part of the mileage equalisation/maintenance schedule process.
At some point, the table process was interrupted by a far more important issue, - the driver availability famine during the 2018 new timetable introduction. I don't thaink that GTR could justify doggedly pursuing the table programme for which there was then no mass demand. That's how a commercial operation makes decisions, cynical or not.
* rotation of 12-car units doesn't involve the Sutton loop, another partly unsuccessful solution to a problem caused by a politician interfering with the original proposals. There is now a small imbalance in the ratio of 12-car to 8-car units.
 
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Aictos

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I take it you're not a fan of the idea then? To start upgrading a fleet, whatever the job entails, in response to a demand from somewhere, then to stop halfway because they're not looking is rather disingenuous to me. It's not like I need the tables but I do feel they're appropriate on the routes 700/1s operate (I'm not a coffee drinker but I find they make working from a laptop much easier) and I'm content to not have them fitted on the 700/0s for the much lower likelihood of people traveling a long distance on the routes they serve, but don't just do a few units and then quietly hope it's forgotten about, that's just purile.

The only problem with that is the 700s work in a common pool so you could see a Class 700/0 work a Bedford to Brighton and the next day it might work a St Albans to Sutton/Wimbledon Loop service etc so while tables might not be needed on a metro service which is what the St Albans Loop services are, they would be nice to have on the longer services eg Luton to Rainham, Bedford to Brighton etc...

That being said as they are in a common fleet, it would make sense to finish retro fitting wifi AND tables to the entire fleet just for standardising purposes.
 

Peter Sarf

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On the subject of tables, despite the fact there were many seats available, I have seen someone standing at the luggage rack using that as a table for their laptop !.

Strikes me that there should be a third class fare - for people who do not plan to sit down either because they want to save money or because there are usually no seats available. To save on the loss of revenue that follows there will be eventually, to improve capacity, all seats removed leaving standing room only instead.

The capacity problem is only going to get worse. At what point do we stop squeezing passenger comfort and instead start paying out for longer platforms, more cross-rail and more flexible hours of work. I do feel that including the Sutton loop in the Thameslink route is a waste of capacity - that is running 8-car trains through a congested core that can handle 50% longer (12-car) trains.

Also I feel frustrated at the pace of progress. Thameslink 2000 just about coming into fruition twenty years later. Crossrail was more or less first suggested thirty years ago - I recall talk of a new East-West line to provide relief for the Central line when I was using that back in 1987-1989.
 
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