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Acceptable Law Breaking (and other morality questions)

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Esker-pades

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Ah, you're playing the old 'I didn't mean what I said' argument.

If the council are offering a free extra recycling bin, its purpose is clear. It's a bin. To keep recycling in. It should need no further explanation than that.
"No..." is my response to the first paragraph.
"We're going round in circles" is my response to the second.

What on earth else would a "recycling bin" be intended to be used for?

This kind of attitude is precisely what has given us tight parking controls, for one thing. There is really no need to legislate on this. You should only claim one if you require it for recycling. You can see where "it doesn't say I can't park in Tesco to commute to work" has led. And if people were just sensible, reasonable and careful, every last one of those car parking companies would be out of business within a month or two.
If it isn't stated clearly, then one can use it for other things.

Well, er, of course it will. More bins will be claimed than are necessary for recycling, so more have to be ordered. Who is going to pay for those bins if they are free at the point of distribution? It's not going to come out of the Mayor's beer and fags fund, is it?

MK Council has had to tighten up on provision of recycling bags for this exact reason - people were getting unlimited numbers of them for free and using them for all sorts of things (none of which involved recycling). Now you have to order them and are very restricted in quantities, which is only going to reduce recycling and is inconvenient. And all because people took the mick.
"Free extra recycling bin" (note the singular) says to me that the council will go up to a maximum of 2 bins per household: The one that all households get, and the extra bin if it is required.
 
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Bletchleyite

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If it isn't stated clearly, then one can use it for other things.

How much more clearly would you like them to state "recycling bin"?

A recycling bin is a bin to be used for recycling. If it was a general-purpose bin, it'd just be called a bin, or a litter bin, or a storage bin, or whatever.

"Free extra recycling bin" (note the singular) says to me that the council will go up to a maximum of 2 bins per household: The one that all households get, and the extra bin if it is required.

Yes. If it is required for recycling because for whatever reason you produce more recycling than normal, e.g. because of having a large family.

These of course will only be ordered if they are needed. The Council aren't sitting on an extra bin per household just in case they might need it, because most won't.
 

Esker-pades

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How much more clearly would you like them to state "recycling bin"?

A recycling bin is a bin to be used for recycling. If it was a general-purpose bin, it'd just be called a bin, or a litter bin, or a storage bin, or whatever.



Yes. If it is required for recycling because for whatever reason you produce more recycling than normal, e.g. because of having a large family.

These of course will only be ordered if they are needed. The Council aren't sitting on an extra bin per household just in case they might need it, because most won't.
Circles again.

Simply, as far as I am aware, the leaflet doesn't state what the recycling bin has to be used for.
 

transmanche

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"No..." is my response to the first paragraph.
Nonsense. If you really were trying to play some sort of devil's advocate you wouldn't have replied to my post with a dismissive "What a silly comment"

"We're going round in circles" is my response to the second.
Possibly, but only because you appear to be ignoring the blatantly obvious.

If it isn't stated clearly, then one can use it for other things.
Why? Only a self-entitled fool would think that the offer of a free recycling bin (not free, but at public expense) would allow them to repurpose it as they choose.
 

Esker-pades

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Nonsense. If you really were trying to play some sort of devil's advocate you wouldn't have replied to my post with a dismissive "What a silly comment"
It was entirely pointless. I know what a recycling bin is supposed to be used for. That doesn't mean it can't be used for other things. I was dismissive because it was insultingly basic.
 

Esker-pades

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Just like you physically can park in Tesco's to go to the nearby pub, or whatever. It doesn't mean that Tesco find it acceptable for you to do that.
As far as I'm aware, Tesco specifically states that their parking is for customer's only.
As far as I'm aware, the council hasn't stated that people can only claim a free bin for recyling purposes only.

If those two are right, your comparison shows that you haven't understood my position.
 

Esker-pades

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What other conceivable purpose could a "recycling bin" be intended for?

This attitude is, as I said, precisely what gives us strict parking enforcement and the likes.
I've already stated that a recycling bin is supposed to be used for recycling.
I've already stated that it can be used for other things, and, as the council hasn't said that the only thing that people can use their free bin for is recycling, one can claim it and then use it for something other than recycling.

I don't have anything else to add on the matter.
 

Bletchleyite

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I've already stated that it can be used for other things, and, as the council hasn't said that the only thing that people can use their free bin for is recycling, one can claim it and then use it for something other than recycling.

And I simply don't agree with this at all. A recycling bin is to be used for recycling. If you don't need it for recycling, don't claim it.

This attitude costs me Council Tax and I resent it.

If you need a bin for something else, buy one.
 

alxndr

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I picked up three recycling bins yesterday. I have no intention of using those particular bins for recycling, but I had to get them as they don't supply the lids on their own and my lids have been destroyed. Am I breaking the rules if I decide to repurpose them?
 

Bletchleyite

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I picked up three recycling bins yesterday. I have no intention of using those particular bins for recycling, but I had to get them as they don't supply the lids on their own and my lids have been destroyed. Am I breaking the rules if I decide to repurpose them?

I'd have said not if you repurpose your old lidless bin, as that is now waste (or the lidless body of the new one if you put the new lid on the old one instead). If you repurpose the new ones in their entirety, then yes, you have claimed them despite having no intention of using them for the recycling.
 

greyman42

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Might pensioners refusing to pay for a TV licence come into this category soon?
 

Bletchleyite

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Do mean that legally, you can use it for other things - but morally you shouldn't?

Yes, probably. No contract has been signed to use it only for that purpose, but it's clear what it's meant for.

Of course, taking the mick morally results in legal sanctions coming in, like parking restrictions or MK Council's tight control on recycling sack issue.
 
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Calthrop

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A post prompted by the thread in "General Discussion" a while ago, Acceptable Law Breaking (and other morality questions).

There are people who reckon themselves bound to behave with the most strict and meticulous honesty, even in matters which most would consider absurdly trivial -- a Christian angle on this, for example Luke 16:10 -- "He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much". While reckoning myself on the strongly-honest side of things, I don't take such matters to the most ultimate extreme -- but feel that such an approach is admirable, even if a little mad; and enjoy occasionally musing on the theme.

Was lately pondering thus, the issue of supermarket trolleys and the standard £1 coin deposit used with them. There are tokens the size and shape of a pound coin, which are of essentially no value, but can be used for supermarket trolley access, saving for the shopper an extra pound coin which they can spend on wares from the supermarket. Or -- the same principle -- occasionally one gets in one's change, a pound coin from elsewhere in the Commonwealth: the size and shape of a standard UK one, but not spendable in Britain; or there are coins from altogether other nations, of the approximate right size and shape to do the job. (I had lately, for some while, a Gibraltar pound which I had un-realisedly got in change, and I used that for supermarket trolleys, in lieu of a "real" pound coin.)

It occurred to me to wonder whether this is a thing which an exponent of 100% total strict honesty ought to eschew, as an act of defrauding the supermarket of "real" money. On taking thought, I concluded that there is fundamentally no element of dishonesty here: because the £1 coin deposit and the locking / unlocking device, are not involved in actually purchasing anything from the supermarket. The £1 deposit's function, is to discourage people from taking a trolley away from the supermarket and ultimately not bringing it back, but doing with it ... whatever they might choose to do. If you want to thus take a trolley away, nothing is actually stopping you: it just means that you will be "out" a pound -- if you're prepared to be thus "out" a pound, you don't return the trolley, and will very probably not get into trouble for it. Each party can be seen to both lose and win: you're out a pound, but you get the trolley to do whatever you will with; the supermarket is out a trolley, but they've got hundreds of them anyway.

Tokens, or non-UK coins, can be seen still to partake of the "deterrent" factor which a standard £1 has. So far as I'm aware, the tokens are not very common -- they're not widely on sale, and are basically items sometimes handed out as "favours"; I had one which I unexpectedly received in that way, from a banking outfit. And in the nature of things, you probably can't rely on there coming into your hands very often, a non-UK coin which can impersonate a UK £1 coin. So if you take away and never return, a trolley which you've accessed with a token or a non-UK coin: you're inconvenienced by so doing -- not by forfeiting a pound which you could otherwise spend, but by forfeiting a useful item which will probably be difficult to replace. The only way I see in which such a practice could amount to cheating the supermarket, is a situation by which someone produced -- on a large scale -- pound-coin-size-and-shape tokens, and sold them for significantly less than a pound each: thus potentially encouraging "trolley-liberators" to do that stunt often, because it would be at less cost to them in cash or bother, than is seen as obtaining in the standard situation.

Highly-strictly-honest people would of course not deliberately make off with a trolley; so, and because of the above, I see no problem with their using a token or a non-UK coin to release a trolley -- doing so would not even offer a significantly higher level of temptation to do wrong, than using a standard £1 coin would. (A very-highly-honest individual who suffered from a personal quirk by which making off with supermarket trolleys was anyway, an ever-present besetting temptation to them -- would no doubt be acutely aware of this, and would put in place for themself whatever preventive measures they found appropriate.)

Would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this matter, and on whether my reasoning above, is valid -- I realise that folks' thoughts are likely to include the sentiment that I ought to get out more / have too much time on my hands !
 

dgl

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I don't see the issue personally, esp. As some supermarkets have their own branded tokens (something that our local Morrison's used when the new £1 coin came out to unlock all their trolleys (the did remove the plug and chain)) .
Plus for supermarkets such as Aldi and Lidl it's done more so that you return the trolley to the front of the store so they don't have to.
 

hexagon789

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A post prompted by the thread in "General Discussion" a while ago, Acceptable Law Breaking (and other morality questions).

There are people who reckon themselves bound to behave with the most strict and meticulous honesty, even in matters which most would consider absurdly trivial -- a Christian angle on this, for example Luke 16:10 -- "He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much". While reckoning myself on the strongly-honest side of things, I don't take such matters to the most ultimate extreme -- but feel that such an approach is admirable, even if a little mad; and enjoy occasionally musing on the theme.

Was lately pondering thus, the issue of supermarket trolleys and the standard £1 coin deposit used with them. There are tokens the size and shape of a pound coin, which are of essentially no value, but can be used for supermarket trolley access, saving for the shopper an extra pound coin which they can spend on wares from the supermarket. Or -- the same principle -- occasionally one gets in one's change, a pound coin from elsewhere in the Commonwealth: the size and shape of a standard UK one, but not spendable in Britain; or there are coins from altogether other nations, of the approximate right size and shape to do the job. (I had lately, for some while, a Gibraltar pound which I had un-realisedly got in change, and I used that for supermarket trolleys, in lieu of a "real" pound coin.)

It occurred to me to wonder whether this is a thing which an exponent of 100% total strict honesty ought to eschew, as an act of defrauding the supermarket of "real" money. On taking thought, I concluded that there is fundamentally no element of dishonesty here: because the £1 coin deposit and the locking / unlocking device, are not involved in actually purchasing anything from the supermarket. The £1 deposit's function, is to discourage people from taking a trolley away from the supermarket and ultimately not bringing it back, but doing with it ... whatever they might choose to do. If you want to thus take a trolley away, nothing is actually stopping you: it just means that you will be "out" a pound -- if you're prepared to be thus "out" a pound, you don't return the trolley, and will very probably not get into trouble for it. Each party can be seen to both lose and win: you're out a pound, but you get the trolley to do whatever you will with; the supermarket is out a trolley, but they've got hundreds of them anyway.

Tokens, or non-UK coins, can be seen still to partake of the "deterrent" factor which a standard £1 has. So far as I'm aware, the tokens are not very common -- they're not widely on sale, and are basically items sometimes handed out as "favours"; I had one which I unexpectedly received in that way, from a banking outfit. And in the nature of things, you probably can't rely on there coming into your hands very often, a non-UK coin which can impersonate a UK £1 coin. So if you take away and never return, a trolley which you've accessed with a token or a non-UK coin: you're inconvenienced by so doing -- not by forfeiting a pound which you could otherwise spend, but by forfeiting a useful item which will probably be difficult to replace. The only way I see in which such a practice could amount to cheating the supermarket, is a situation by which someone produced -- on a large scale -- pound-coin-size-and-shape tokens, and sold them for significantly less than a pound each: thus potentially encouraging "trolley-liberators" to do that stunt often, because it would be at less cost to them in cash or bother, than is seen as obtaining in the standard situation.

Highly-strictly-honest people would of course not deliberately make off with a trolley; so, and because of the above, I see no problem with their using a token or a non-UK coin to release a trolley -- doing so would not even offer a significantly higher level of temptation to do wrong, than using a standard £1 coin would. (A very-highly-honest individual who suffered from a personal quirk by which making off with supermarket trolleys was anyway, an ever-present besetting temptation to them -- would no doubt be acutely aware of this, and would put in place for themself whatever preventive measures they found appropriate.)

Would be interested in anyone's thoughts on this matter, and on whether my reasoning above, is valid -- I realise that folks' thoughts are likely to include the sentiment that I ought to get out more / have too much time on my hands !

I don't see any issues with using foreign currency or non-legal tender to release a trolley, in my view its no different to using a key chain token or similar.

As for spending money, of its foreign currency I'd perhaps have qualms with that but specifically a Gibraltar pound - no. They are exchangeable on par with Sterling and if the supermarket or shop accepted it they can always exchange it.
 

big all

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havent read the whole thread [very liittle indeed ]
but on basic principle if you you use as designed leave the trolly where required after use
or swop it with the same token or coin being recieved from another person then you have complete a transaction
accepting a coin or token when non is present in the trolly at exchange is stealing
 
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