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Differences Between Various Sprinters Acceleration

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hexagon789

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Class 68 would surely better a Deltic: 3,750hp for 85 tonnes.

I'm not doing well today, that's about the third thing I've overlooked/forgotten. Yes, a 68 would definitely do better, especially with a modern traction system - I imagine you could probably go straight into full power from the off.

I make it 26.67hp per tonne for a Deltic and
37.86 per tonne for a 68. A considerable difference.
 
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Rob F

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The fastest accelerating train is probably between class 88, 90 or 92. Out of those I've only seen a 90 to power off from a standstill and it was fast. 0-60mph in about 4 seconds ?
Not a chance!! 4 seconds is supercar performance. A supercar might have over 400hp per ton, a class 90 has around 59hp per ton. Also the loco will not be able to put the power down so well as the coefficient of friction of a steel wheel on a steel rail is low compared to rubber on tarmac.
 

TRAX

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Not a chance!! 4 seconds is supercar performance. A supercar might have over 400hp per ton, a class 90 has around 59hp per ton. Also the loco will not be able to put the power down so well as the coefficient of friction of a steel wheel on a steel rail is low compared to rubber on tarmac.

Indeed. A light electric TRAXX at full chat will take approx. 15 seconds from 0 to 60 mph. 4 seconds is impossible.
 

Railperf

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Getting back to Sprinters - and DMU's - I have recorded a lot of acceleration data and carried out an exercise comparing the best acceleration with as close to a level start as possible. In a virtual 'drag race' to 3 miles the fastest was a 755/4 diesel in 2 mins 42 sec, the slowest was `Class 180 at 2 mins 57 seconds, with the Class 222, 2+4 HST around 2 mins 48 secs and Class 185 at 2 min 51 secs. A 2+6 HST managed 3 mins dead.
The best of the sprinter type units is a Class 170 at 3 mins 22 sec
 

Railperf

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Still, a Super Pacer...

That must've shifted some!
Crazy to think that a 10 or 11 litre diesel engine used for trains produces a are 200 to 250hp - the same power as a 3-litre car engine - though i do get that these outputs are at pretty low RPM compared to automotive use and therefore supposedly more robust and reliable. Does anyone know how many miles / hours are expected between engine overhauls?
 

Railperf

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I don't agree with those 0-60 figures. A 220 can do 0-60 in around 40 seconds and I have worked 185s out accelerating voyagers out of York! ;)
I haven't recorded any 22x unit doing 0 to 60mph under 60 seconds - even on downhill starts! Anyway, it is no secret that traction power has been altered for fuel economy and reliability reasons, so they are not quite as accelerative as when they were first introduced. Depending on the state of the unit, track speed etc, there are times when either unit can out accelerate the other. But the best examples of recorded performance in the last 2 to 3 years show the 222 series very slightly faster than 185's. But maybe the issue is that i hear frequent reports of 22x units running with an engine isolated! Therefore a 185 on all engines, will be faster than any 22x unit with an engine out.
 

Domh245

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Crazy to think that a 10 or 11 litre diesel engine used for trains produces a are 200 to 250hp - the same power as a 3-litre car engine - though i do get that these outputs are at pretty low RPM compared to automotive use and therefore supposedly more robust and reliable. Does anyone know how many miles / hours are expected between engine overhauls?

You can get 200bhp plus out of 2 litres now - although typically with twin-turbos. The advantage of the low engine speed is going to be more to do with the torque available - these 200bhp+ 2 litres will put out up to 500Nm at around 1500rpm - the 10L Cummins is good for almost 1000Nm (extrapolating from a similarly powered bus variant on Wiki!)
 

hwl

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You can get 200bhp plus out of 2 litres now - although typically with twin-turbos. The advantage of the low engine speed is going to be more to do with the torque available - these 200bhp+ 2 litres will put out up to 500Nm at around 1500rpm - the 10L Cummins is good for almost 1000Nm (extrapolating from a similarly powered bus variant on Wiki!)
The max torque of:
the cummins 350hp sprinter engine is 1492Nm at 1400rpm,
the cummins 400hp sprinter engine is 1550Nm at 1100rpm,
the perkins 350hp sprinter engine is 1560Nm at 1150rpm,
the turbostar engine 2100Nm at 1100rpm

Rail / NRMM engines are designed to last far longer than road vehicle ones
 

hexagon789

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I haven't recorded any 22x unit doing 0 to 60mph under 60 seconds - even on downhill starts

Definitely faster when new, there was a clip or video showing them off when new somewhere I've seen and I believe it was stated how quickly they could accelerate. I've actually been trying to find that video clip for something else, but if I do find it I'll post the relevant acceleration figure.
 

londonmidland

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I haven't recorded any 22x unit doing 0 to 60mph under 60 seconds - even on downhill starts!
Once the lock-down is over, I'm definitely going to start recording some estimates of how fast 222's accelerate out of Leicester going northbound. Pretty much perfectly flat and can open full throttle thanks to the high line speed north of the station.
 

hexagon789

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Some figures, as new apparently 110mph could be reached in under 3 minutes.

If you look at Eversholts own data on the class, it's a fraction over 3 mins 40 to 175km/h (just under 110mph).

So they've lost about 40-45 seconds to 110mph then due to derating?
 

Railperf

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Once the lock-down is over, I'm definitely going to start recording some estimates of how fast 222's accelerate out of Leicester going northbound. Pretty much perfectly flat and can open full throttle thanks to the high line speed north of the station.
Leicester northbound starts are slightly downhill, so you might get slightly quicker starts by a few seconds there, whereas Loughborough starts Northbound are level for several miles - so a more accurate barometer.
 

Railperf

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Definitely faster when new, there was a clip or video showing them off when new somewhere I've seen and I believe it was stated how quickly they could accelerate. I've actually been trying to find that video clip for something else, but if I do find it I'll post the relevant acceleration figure.
I recall Virgin Trains publicity stating 'sports car acceleration' - 0 to 60mph in 60 seconds for 220 and 70 seconds for 221s
 

hexagon789

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I recall Virgin Trains publicity stating 'sports car acceleration' - 0 to 60mph in 60 seconds for 220 and 70 seconds for 221s

I remember that for Voyagers certainly, presumably 222s would be similar to 220s? I think the weights are similar.
 

sw1ller

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Every voyager I’ve been in the cab of in the last 4 years has been running on 3or 4 engines. Never the full amount. And timing a 185 without driving it is pointless as all TPE drivers are told not to use full power, ever. They still out perform our 175s by quite some way. I’ll time this 175 I’m on now if it’s of any interest to the thread?
 

Railperf

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Some figures, as new apparently 110mph could be reached in under 3 minutes.

If you look at Eversholts own data on the class, it's a fraction over 3 mins 40 to 175km/h (just under 110mph).

So they've lost about 40-45 seconds to 110mph then due to derating?
My last two runs out of Loughborough Northbound on 222's have been 0 to 60mph in 60/61 seconds, 0 to 100mph in 2min40/2min50 , and 0 to 110mph in 3min15/3min22.
 

Railperf

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Every voyager I’ve been in the cab of in the last 4 years has been running on 3or 4 engines. Never the full amount. And timing a 185 without driving it is pointless as all TPE drivers are told not to use full power, ever. They still out perform our 175s by quite some way. I’ll time this 175 I’m on now if it’s of any interest to the thread?
I have it on very good authority that class 185 traction computer limits traction power even if you go attempt to go straight into notch 5. I have not heard of any instruction not to use full power. Drivers might be advised to start on lower power notches - due to the fact that notch 4 won't give you instant full power anyway. I know that when drivers use speed set, one of the engines will shut down into eco mode after three minutes if there has been no movement on the power controller. The engine cannot then be restarted until the train has stopped at the next station.
 
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Railperf

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Every voyager I’ve been in the cab of in the last 4 years has been running on 3or 4 engines. Never the full amount. And timing a 185 without driving it is pointless as all TPE drivers are told not to use full power, ever. They still out perform our 175s by quite some way. I’ll time this 175 I’m on now if it’s of any interest to the thread?
Last two voyagers i travelled aboard had one engine shut down. By contrast, a greater percentage of 222's seem to run on all engines.
 

sw1ller

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I have it on very good authority that class 185 traction computer limits traction power even if you go attempt to go straight into notch 4. I have not heard of any instruction not to use full power. Drivers might be advised to start on lower power notches - due to the fact that notch 4 won't give you instant full power anyway. I know that when drivers use speed set, one of the engines will shut down into eco mode after two minutes if there has been no movement on the power controller. The engine cannot then be restarted until the train has stopped at the next station.

Im just going by what Don Coffee said in one of his videos on YouTube. Maybe it’s a depot specific thing? I don’t know.
 

JohnMcL7

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I recall Virgin Trains publicity stating 'sports car acceleration' - 0 to 60mph in 60 seconds for 220 and 70 seconds for 221s

I've found information that confirms that but it seems a strange comment to make unless I'm misunderstanding since even the slowest 0-60 for a UK car is under 20 seconds and a sports car would be expected to be sub five seconds.
 

gimmea50anyday

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The engine cannot then be restarted until the train has stopped at the next station.

You *coughs* “can” restart a 185 engine on the move, you have to allow a few seconds once it starts and you hear the engine rev very slightly, at that point the train computer has acknowledged the engine is available for traction power but it won’t demand any power if the train is braking or accelerating. The trick here is to coast for a few seconds, (or better be still, be stationary) then when you throttle or brake the engine should power up normally. The fact is this isn’t done in service as Siemens and TPE don’t like the engines being started on the move. The specifics as to why I don’t know. There is a reason for it, but wether this is just a company thing or manufacturer advisory I cannot say. being a tail lamp i’m not in the habit of starting engines anyway. So,e drivers find an engine drops out just as the train is being despatched, hit the start switch and throttle up before the traction system has had chance to register the engine as running, and wonder why the left York low on power! Next time you hear a 185 engine start, listen and see if you can spot the slight rev up. I often wait until I hear this before I give 2 on buzzer if I hear an engine being started
 

gimmea50anyday

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I've found information that confirms that but it seems a strange comment to make unless I'm misunderstanding since even the slowest 0-60 for a UK car is under 20 seconds and a sports car would be expected to be sub five seconds.

Think it was more to do with marketing gimmickry than anything else. To emphasise the superior acceleration compared to the old class 47 hauled train.
 

37057

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You *coughs* “can” restart a 185 engine on the move, you have to allow a few seconds once it starts and you hear the engine rev very slightly, at that point the train computer has acknowledged the engine is available for traction power but it won’t demand any power if the train is braking or accelerating. The trick here is to coast for a few seconds, (or better be still, be stationary) then when you throttle or brake the engine should power up normally. The fact is this isn’t done in service as Siemens and TPE don’t like the engines being started on the move. The specifics as to why I don’t know. There is a reason for it, but wether this is just a company thing or manufacturer advisory I cannot say. being a tail lamp i’m not in the habit of starting engines anyway. So,e drivers find an engine drops out just as the train is being despatched, hit the start switch and throttle up before the traction system has had chance to register the engine as running, and wonder why the left York low on power! Next time you hear a 185 engine start, listen and see if you can spot the slight rev up. I often wait until I hear this before I give 2 on buzzer if I hear an engine being started

Some tech insight...

Starting an engine on the move (obviously in direction) will play havoc with the reversing cylinders and the meshing on the transmission. If you're in the lead cab and the transmission has to 'throw the other way' at a terminus the TMS display has a small speaker which will give an audible bleep. This is an indication that the TMS (or behind the scenes, the CCU) has applied the emergency brakes for the process of selecting to happen.

On starting up an engine you should hear a very slight change in note followed by the whine of the alternator (off load). This is the hydrostatic solenoid allowing fluid to drive the alternator. After a few more seconds there will be a second and more obvious change of engine note, this is caused by the alternator contractor closing and the load being placed on the engine. Off topic slightly but xmas eve last year, had one come in with a short across the phases on the train wires. Started the engine and once the alternator loaded it was enough to stop the engine dead. Surprised the alternator stayed on its mounts....!
 
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Hairy Bear

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Last two voyagers i travelled aboard had one engine shut down. By contrast, a greater percentage of 222's seem to run on all engines.

The engine might be running but not necessarily giving traction power. The engine computer loves to randomly remove it often without any indication.
 

hexagon789

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My last two runs out of Loughborough Northbound on 222's have been 0 to 60mph in 60/61 seconds, 0 to 100mph in 2min40/2min50 , and 0 to 110mph in 3min15/3min22.

Does seem to be a bit of a difference, though not quite as much as my figures suggested
 
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