Northern Dec 2019 Timetable Bid

darloscott · 15 Jun 2019

Northern have put their track access application in for the December 2019 timetable. It is now publically available at the following address: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...on-operating-companies/sale-of-access-rights/
Whilst we won't see the timetable details for a while yet, I thought I would outline the main bits from the document.

- An extra daily service Middlesbrough to Whitby & return
- New daily service between Middlesbrough & Newcastle (10 north, 11 south) via Stillington & ECML calling Thornaby, Stockton, Durham and Chester-le-Street
- New Horden station added to calls on coast stopper
- 1846 Carlisle to Whitehaven moved to 2000
- A new Sunday morning 0830 Blackburn to Preston
- New service from Halifax to Hull via Bradford, Leeds & Selby including the current Leeds-Selby service. (Calls at Bradford, New Pudsey, Bramley, Leeds, Crossgates, Garforth, E Garforth, Micklefield, S Milford, Selby, Brough)
- Huddersfield-Leeds local service to be curtailed at Bradford
- An extra service Leeds to Hull / return, Huddersfield to Bradford / return
- Sunday Leeds to Lancaster services extended to Morecambe
- New daily service between York and Scarborough, 15 Mon-Sat and 13 Sunday services each direction (should be hourly).
- Linking the York-Hull & Hull-Bridlington together as one through service
- Alderley Edge & Stalybridge to Wigan services extended to Southport in place of existing services from Leeds & Blackburn that will be curtailed at Wigan Wallgate
- Hourly mid-Cheshire Sunday services
- 0749 Macclesfield-Manchester to start back from Stoke

It also mentions there were other services that they are currently unable to bid for due to pressures on performance that were promised in the TSR and they will continue pushing for these to be implemented.

RailUK Forums

Glenn1969 · 15 Jun 2019

Manchester Airport to Leeds via Bradford is mentioned as a stopping service in the list of stations called. Leeds to Huddersfield via Halifax is also listed separately to the new Bradford to Huddersfield service so it was not entirely clear whether the service is split or enhnanced to 2tph through Brighouse

I also note the Brighouse line Southport service appears to be curtailed at Wigan

I would welcome the Hull service but note the absence of the Nottingham- Bradford and Calder Valley-Liverpool services which must be deferred until 2020 alongside the Airport service presumably

blackfive460 · 16 Jun 2019

darloscott said:
- New daily service between York and Scarborough, 15 Mon-Sat and 13 Sunday services each direction (should be hourly).

The capacity increase plus an alternative to TPX, even if it is Northern, will be extremely welcome on that route.

northernchris · 16 Jun 2019

darloscott said:
- Huddersfield-Leeds local service to be curtailed at Bradford

Surprised Northern are choosing this option, even though the bus is quicker and more frequent it severs the link from Bradford to Brighouse and Huddersfield.

darloscott said:
An extra service Leeds to Hull / return, Huddersfield to Bradford / return

I wonder if the Bradford - Huddersfield will link up with the Huddersfield - Castleford service.

darloscott said:
- Linking the York-Hull & Hull-Bridlington together as one through service

Does this mean the Sheffield - Bridlington will be curtailed at Hull, or is Hull - Bridlington going to 3 trains per hour?

Bletchleyite · 16 Jun 2019

What are Northern doing bidding service increases and expansion (give or take that one service) when they can't resource what they've got?

northernchris · 16 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
What are Northern doing bidding service increases and expansion (give or take that one service) when they can't resource what they've got?

Hopefully by December the full fleet of 195s and 331s will be in use alongside the flex units which should provide a bit more resilience

Iskra · 16 Jun 2019

Some positives there, but nothing at all for South Yorkshire!

Iskra · 16 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
What are Northern doing bidding service increases and expansion (give or take that one service) when they can't resource what they've got?

Quite. One can only assume they’ve done the maths. Personally, I’m not expecting all of the vast amount of pacers to be leaving on time. If they do, it could be another Northern meltdown, but this time network wide.

darloscott · 16 Jun 2019

To be fair the proposed increases shouldn't cost that many extra units. I reckon about 5 providing there is no doubling up?
Halifax-Hull will only require one extra unit over what they run now.
York-Scarborough should be doable with two.
Middlesbrough to Newcastle express should easily be achieveable with 3. If interworked as originally planned with the Carlisle express then this should drop to just two required as they lay over in Newcastle for around 45 minutes every hour.

thealexweb · 16 Jun 2019

- Alderley Edge & Stalybridge to Wigan services extended to Southport in place of existing services from Leeds & Blackburn that will be curtailed at Wigan Wallgate

I must admit I am struggling to understand this.

Bletchleyite · 16 Jun 2019

thealexweb said:
I must admit I am struggling to understand this.

It's to reinstate a service from Southport to the Castlefield corridor lost at the last major change to the great dislike of almost everyone on the route. The swap of Victoria services is probably just to keep things roughly half hourly.

Glenn1969 · 16 Jun 2019

This timetable appears to be a stepping stone towards full implementation of TSR3 further on in the franchise and restores the cross-Leeds service from Halifax and Bradford the withdrawal of which was widely decried in December 2018. However for a year the new service only has contingent rights to assess its effect on performance which IMHO is fair enough. The new service is to replace the Huddersfield train at New Pudsey and Bramley. It will be interesting to see timetabling Bradford to Halifax and vv to see how much of a gap exists between the two trains

Northern also requested 18 extra paths Leeds- Wakefield Westgate which is making me wonder if the Nottingham service is being diverted as per the TSR even if it does not appear to be being extended to Bradford.

I look forward to another year of improvement to my local train service

Grannyjoans · 16 Jun 2019

Alderley Edge & Stalybridge to Wigan services extended to Southport in place of existing services from Leeds & Blackburn that will be curtailed at Wigan Wallgate

Bloody hell it looks like the 158s will never make it to Southport at this rate.
(Given the fact that they were supposed to be on the Leeds-Southport servce already but this has been delayed due to the delayed introduction of the 195s)

geoffk · 16 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It's to reinstate a service from Southport to the Castlefield corridor lost at the last major change to the great dislike of almost everyone on the route. The swap of Victoria services is probably just to keep things roughly half hourly.

Surely the Alderley Edge and Stalybridge to Wigan services were intended to be operated by the 769s, as they are interworked, and running them to North Western was designed for eventual electric working. Is Northern going to run 769s to Southport instead? What is the purpose then of electrifying Lostock Jn to Wigan, except as a diversionary route?

WatcherZero · 16 Jun 2019

The latest update from Northern is the first tranche of new rolling stock will enter service on the 1st of July with 9 units for passengers services and 10 for crew/maintenance training out of the 34 in the country so far. They intend to keep introducing further tranches to service as soon as they are available rather than waiting for timetable changes and currently forecast 70% of new fleets will be in service by the end of the year, additionally 80% of refurbishments of existing units has been completed.

TPE expect the following rolling stock to be in service by the end of the year, introduction of Nova 1 (19 units) training in autumn and passengers services in December, Nova 2 (12 units) staff training in summer and passenger introduction in Autumn and Nova 3 (13 units) first units in passenger service this summer on a trial basis with complete rollout of the units by the end of the year.

Northern have also completed feasibility work on battery trial on Windermere and Hydrogen trial on Tees Valley both commencing December 2022, both trials are now awaiting Dft to sign off funding approval.

VT 390 · 16 Jun 2019

northernchris said:
Surprised Northern are choosing this option, even though the bus is quicker and more frequent it severs the link from Bradford to Brighouse and Huddersfield.

I thought that it was to be terminated at Bradford from Huddersfield with the section to Leeds section being removed, is it the other way around?

Glenn1969 · 16 Jun 2019

The Bradford to Leeds section is being replaced by the new Hull service which is also an extension of the current Leeds to Selby stopping service to Brough and Hull. But the new train will start from Halifax

darloscott · 16 Jun 2019

Effectively you'll end up with a Halifax-Hull and Bradford-Huddersfield separate.

Glenn1969 · 16 Jun 2019

I worked that out. I wonder about spacing Bradford-Halifax for passengers from New Pudsey and Bramley wanting connections to Brighouse and Huddersfield. Hope the trains are not too close together and how does the new plan cater for Low Moor?

northernchris · 16 Jun 2019

VT 390 said:
I thought that it was to be terminated at Bradford from Huddersfield with the section to Leeds section being removed, is it the other way around?

You're right, which means Bradford - Halifax gains an extra train each hour

Grannyjoans · 16 Jun 2019

Surely the Alderley Edge and Stalybridge to Wigan services were intended to be operated by the 769s, as they are interworked, and running them to North Western was designed for eventual electric working. Is Northern going to run 769s to Southport instead? What is the purpose then of electrifying Lostock Jn to Wigan, except as a diversionary route?

The running of these services to Southport has made me think that they are abandoning the idea of running 769 Flex at all. After all, the Diesel mode on the 769 was only designed to be used as little as possible, between Wigan and Bolton, as a cheaper alternative to electrification.

Now that Alderley and Staly are being extended to Southport, Does this mean they now deserve better rolling stock than 150's ??

Don't forget 150's will be the "worst unit of the fleet" when the Pacers go at the end of this year.

Grannyjoans · 16 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It's to reinstate a service from Southport to the Castlefield corridor lost at the last major change to the great dislike of almost everyone on the route. The swap of Victoria services is probably just to keep things roughly half hourly.

The new change will mean a loss of any service between Southport and the stations on the Atherton line. These services will all be going via Westhoughton on the Wigan-Manchester side.

Shaw S Hunter · 16 Jun 2019

Grannyjoans said:
The running of these services to Southport has made me think that they are abandoning the idea of running 769 Flex at all. After all, the Diesel mode on the 769 was only designed to be used as little as possible, between Wigan and Bolton, as a cheaper alternative to electrification.

Now that Alderley and Staly are being extended to Southport, Does this mean they now deserve better rolling stock than 150's ??

Don't forget 150's will be the "worst unit of the fleet" when the Pacers go at the end of this year.

I think it may be more a case of not wanting to be burnt again by the failings of others as per May last year. IOW plan on what you can be sure of and ignore, at least for now, the as yet undelivered promises re 769s and electrification.

Grannyjoans said:
The new change will mean a loss of any service between Southport and the stations on the Atherton line. These services will all be going via Westhoughton on the Wigan-Manchester side.

Significant when the sun shines, less so the rest of the time.

geoffk · 16 Jun 2019

Shaw S Hunter said:
I think it may be more a case of not wanting to be burnt again by the failings of others as per May last year. IOW plan on what you can be sure of and ignore, at least for now, the as yet undelivered promises re 769s and electrification.

Significant when the sun shines, less so the rest of the time.

So diesel all the way from Bolton to Alderley Edge, just because some folk from Southport want to go to Oxford Road or Piccadilly. And once again the Southport service is split between Piccadilly and Victoria.

Bletchleyite · 16 Jun 2019

Grannyjoans said:
The new change will mean a loss of any service between Southport and the stations on the Atherton line. These services will all be going via Westhoughton on the Wigan-Manchester side.

I don't think the Sandgrounders will care. The Atherton line is not a great destination.

As regards the 769s, they're hardly going to find Southport taxing, it's flat as a pancake.

Bletchleyite · 16 Jun 2019

geoffk said:
So diesel all the way from Bolton to Alderley Edge, just because some folk from Southport want to go to Oxford Road or Piccadilly. And once again the Southport service is split between Piccadilly and Victoria.

That sounds awkward, but it is actually what the locals want. They've had it for years (it's what the service has been post-Windsor Link opening, albeit with Vic only being peak hours until the 1998 timetable change) and there are few complaints about that arrangement.

As for diesels, I can't see any reason not to use 769s to Southport. It's hardly a taxing route - flat as a pancake and low speed.

Glenn1969 · 16 Jun 2019

Think Hull to Bridlington will still be 2tph

The Bridlington terminator will run from York and the Scarborough train will run from Sheffield

Shaw S Hunter · 16 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
That sounds awkward, but it is actually what the locals want. They've had it for years (it's what the service has been post-Windsor Link opening, albeit with Vic only being peak hours until the 1998 timetable change) and there are few complaints about that arrangement.

As for diesels, I can't see any reason not to use 769s to Southport. It's hardly a taxing route - flat as a pancake and low speed.

70mph may not be high speed but I wouldn't call it low speed either. Bizarrely enough the Atherton line is only 50mph despite a relatively recent re-lay.

Grannyjoans · 16 Jun 2019

As for diesels, I can't see any reason not to use 769s to Southport. It's hardly a taxing route - flat as a pancake and low speed.

The whole point of the 769 Flex is to use the diesel mode over the shortest distance possible.
I don't think running distances such as Southport-Bolton was considered when the plan was thought of. Just Wigan-Bolton.
On diesel mode they are said to have lower performance than a 150 due to the heavy weight of the Flex units and only two powered carriages out of four.

Bletchleyite · 16 Jun 2019

Shaw S Hunter said:
70mph may not be high speed but I wouldn't call it low speed either. Bizarrely enough the Atherton line is only 50mph despite a relatively recent re-lay.

I didn't know it was 70, but I bet it barely reaches that, particularly on a stopper.

Grannyjoans said:
The whole point of the 769 Flex is to use the diesel mode over the shortest distance possible.
On diesel mode they are said to have lower performance than a 150 due to the heavy weight of the Flex units and only two powered carriages out of four.

The whole point of the 769 Flex or any bi-mode is to run at speed on the main trunk of the route on OHLE, and switch to diesel on the slower, less taxing branch-line bit. Southport is an absolute textbook example, as would be Kirkby if it ran via Bolton, as would be Barrow or Windermere.

Northern Dec 2019 Timetable Bid

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