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Crossing Divides On The Move

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The_Train

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Yes. Railway enthusiasts. Not specific people and their personalities, railway enthusiasts.

Of course these issues spread throughout society but I can kind of see @DarloRich's point as I do get the impression that in terms of percentages there is probably a higher number within this hobby who suffer these issues than in other hobbies. And before I start getting asked for facts and stuff, I don't have any (they probably don't exist as a lot of people suppress these issues) it's simply a bit feeling based on those I've chatted with and the backgrounds they talk about. And the fact that it's this sort of issue that brought me back to the hobby.....surely I'm not the only one?

I'll expand on the second assumption: public transport is a really bad place to attempt to strike up a conversation for a person with anxiety (shyness, awkwardness, whatever you want to call it) because it is a captive location. If things go wrong, which is a significant reason for not doing so, then one is esentially trapped. That really doesn't help. Using other places where a quick exit is available if required is useful.

This is a very good point to be fair. An escape route is key to people with issues as mentioned above and trains don't usually offer that.
 
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Esker-pades

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Of course these issues spread throughout society but I can kind of see @DarloRich's point as I do get the impression that in terms of percentages there is probably a higher number within this hobby who suffer these issues than in other hobbies. And before I start getting asked for facts and stuff, I don't have any (they probably don't exist as a lot of people suppress these issues) it's simply a bit feeling based on those I've chatted with and the backgrounds they talk about. And the fact that it's this sort of issue that brought me back to the hobby.....surely I'm not the only one?



This is a very good point to be fair. An escape route is key to people with issues as mentioned above and trains don't usually offer that.
I may have been over-egging the sarcasm at the start.
 

gswindale

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After a bad/long day at work, dealing with 3rd parties and also colleagues who can cause problems, the one thing I like about getting in my car and driving home is the peace & quiet. It was also nice when I used to use the train to be able to get on board, put my earphones in and block out the world around me.

If there were delays, then I would talk to other commuters and there were a few I'd say "hello" to in the morning, but the journey itself was part of my "down" time where I could just chill out and relax.
 

trainophile

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We are naturally reticent as a species. This is why people boarding a bus or train automatically look for a seat where they won't be next to or opposite a stranger. Is it just me or do other people feel ever so slightly awkward when having to have someone in what we perceive as our personal space, i.e. touching distance?
 

DarloRich

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We are naturally reticent as a species.

no we aren't! We are a social species. Any form of anthropological study shows that. Things get complicated by certain human medical conditions but as a general rule humans are a social animal. It is one of the main reasons we prosper: We work together and can use tools to help us.

This is why people boarding a bus or train automatically look for a seat where they won't be next to or opposite a stranger. Is it just me or do other people feel ever so slightly awkward when having to have someone in what we perceive as our personal space, i.e. touching distance?

that is just awkwardness. If you are sat on a bus your "personal space" extends as far as the seat you are sat in. Another is welcome to use any other seat at any time as long as they don't sit on your knee you haven't any cause to complain!

I'll expand on the second assumption: public transport is a really bad place to attempt to strike up a conversation for a person with anxiety (shyness, awkwardness, whatever you want to call it) because it is a captive location. If things go wrong, which is a significant reason for not doing so, then one is esentially trapped. That really doesn't help. Using other places where a quick exit is available if required is useful.

The problem is people, often, wont try to overcome these crushing problems. If you want to prosper you have to overcome this issue and not use it as an excuse for not talking to to people.

A final point: Wanting to isolate oneself from the rest of the world for a short period of time is not a bad thing.

Perhaps. The problem is many here are completely isolated either through choice or personality and seem happy to live like that. I think that is damaging. I like my own space from time to time but having personal interactions is crucial to development as a rounded person.

if you are ever stuck on a bus or train near to someone who obviously has unlimited minutes on their phone contract, there comes a time quite quickly when you just want them to shut up!

That is an entirely different issue! It seems you overlooked my initial post where people have to understand the social and verbal clues regarding conversation. I suspect many here lack those skills. There is loads of research into this area that can be found on line. One of the key factors is to understand how initiating conversation works. There will be a trigger and in the UK that is often the weather ( honestly!) as this is the opening offer to converse. The rest of the conversation is governed by the response to that. Most here would just grunt, I suspect seemingly terrified of interacting with another person!

Yammering into your mobile is just rude and shows a complete lack of self awareness

I would never got up to someone and ask them if they had "Got much planned for today ?" or equivalent . It is the type of expression that some nerdy management type would come up with as an 'excellent idea' for Customer Interaction Training. It is an 'open' question.

as above - it is a opening question designed to generate a conversation. I suspect for Tesco it is an attempt to build up rapport with the customer.

I want to look out of the window, listen to music or podcasts and watch the world go by. Noise cancelling headphones are a blessing.

I find this "shutinism" very sad. We seem as a society to be very happy to live in our own heads all the time. It is worrying and sad. We are losing the ability to write and speak to each other.
 

trainophile

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On the other hand, if there’s someone already at the bus stop when I arrive I almost always say good morning with a smile. I am surprised how often I get completely blanked, which makes it awkward to have to stand there until the bus comes. I guess it’s because the other person is scared that I might try to make conversation! There’s a difference between a brief courtesy and exchanging life stories.
 

yorkie

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I am actually quite sociable and enjoy chatting with ... well, anyone really.

But can I just warn people not to ask me the ubiquitous "Got much planned for today ?"

If you do, I will tell you to mind your own effing business and assault you violently. Sorry. o_O
I suggest you seek help urgently if that really is true.

Anyway I think that initiatives such as this, as well as offering the alternative of a quiet carriage, are a good idea (providing the logistics work). Give people the choice!
 
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nlogax

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I find this "shutinism" very sad. We seem as a society to be very happy to live in our own heads all the time. It is worrying and sad. We are losing the ability to write and speak to each other.

I think you have to consider the wider picture. Someone wanting to be in a quiet space for a three or four hour journey isn't necessarily representative of the rest of their week or their general demeanour.
 

DarloRich

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I think you have to consider the wider picture. Someone wanting to be in a quiet space for a three or four hour journey isn't necessarily representative of the rest of their week or their general demeanour.

I don't discount that. However I think that shutting your self away in these situations is absolutely indicative of general demeanour. It is a worrying trend in society generally. We live much more insular lives than previous generations.

For instance: How much do you know about your neighbours?
 

Esker-pades

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The problem is people, often, wont try to overcome these crushing problems. If you want to prosper you have to overcome this issue and not use it as an excuse for not talking to to people.
Quantify "often". The majority? Or, just that it happens a lot? If the latter, then it is a slightly pointless statement given the number of people.
On what are you basing your assertion that people aren't trying?

Secondly, you appear to have entirely ignored the point that public transport is a bad location to attempt to overcome the difficulties.

Finally, anxiety is not an excuse. It is an actual thing. If the "cure" for anxiety was that simple, then people with it would already be overcoming it.


I find this "shutinism" very sad. We seem as a society to be very happy to live in our own heads all the time. It is worrying and sad. We are losing the ability to write and speak to each other.
Maybe listening to music on public transport is their own space between the office and the family at home.
(Plus the comment made by nlogax .)
 

trainophile

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I am currently on a fairly full 2-coach Sprinter to Chester, and the lady I am sat next to is working on something involving two phones and a pad of paper + pen. I am sure she would be delighted if I start chatting about the weather.

Knowing your neighbours is another thing. The Coronation Street days of living in and out of eachother’s houses are long gone, and provided you exchange pleasantries and will take in a parcel for them where’s the need to become part of their busy lives?
 

nlogax

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I don't discount that. However I think that shutting your self away in these situations is absolutely indicative of general demeanour. It is a worrying trend in society generally. We live much more insular lives than previous generations.

That's true, in general this is an increasingly common behaviour. While I can't put my finger on the 'why', my guess is it's down to many in society being increasingly connected via devices (Whatsapp, social media) - and more generally, technology. Self-service tills in supermarkets, if you're not already getting shopping deliveries directly to the home, that sort of thing.

Knowing your neighbours is only partially connected to this. I can't speak for anyone else but in my local experience none I know of are working 9 til 5, five days per week. We rarely see each other. Passing ships.. possibly another reason for what you speak of.
 

DarloRich

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Knowing your neighbours is only partially connected to this. I can't speak for anyone else but in my local experience none I know of are working 9 til 5, five days per week. We rarely see each other. Passing ships.. possibly another reason for what you speak of.

I know what you mean about the hours but I made a point of introducing myself when I moved in and we have quite a good relationship now. I thought that was a good idea as i had the builders in and they were knocking the guts out of my house and chucking stuff in a skip in the street! There are 5 houses in my terrace and we all know each other and look out for each other.
 

mallard

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I'm sorry, but this sort of thing is just ignorant.

no we aren't! We are a social species.

On average, in general. That does not mean everybody should be compelled to be "social" at all times with every random person they encounter.

If you are sat on a bus your "personal space" extends as far as the seat you are sat in. Another is welcome to use any other seat at any time as long as they don't sit on your knee you haven't any cause to complain!

No argument there. However, just being seated near somebody does not give you the right to force them to interact with you socially. That gives them a very justified cause to complain.

The problem is people, often, wont try to overcome these crushing problems. If you want to prosper you have to overcome this issue and not use it as an excuse for not talking to to people.

Absolute tosh. Many, many, people "prosper" in life without turning into uber-extroverted "outgoing" personalities. I'm a self-confessed introvert and consider myself pretty "prosperous" (and no, I'm not going to expand on that and tell you all the details of my life; you have no need or right to know and I don't feel the need to justify my existence to someone who comes across as, frankly, bigoted). There is an abundance of similar people in mathematical, scientific, engineering ("cerebral" people), etc. fields of employment and study. Both society and individually, we have all prospered from their (our) contributions.

The problem is many here are completely isolated either through choice or personality and seem happy to live like that. I think that is damaging.

What on earth gives you the right to brand other people who, by your own admission, are happy as "damaging"!?! Damaging to whom? "Damaging" to you because you feel that you're entitled to social intercourse with people who feel differently?

They're not hurting you or anybody else. They have every right to live their lives in whatever way they choose. This is an absolutely disgusting, intolerant attitude. As a society, we've made great strides in increasing tolerance and acceptance of people of different races, sexualities, genders, etc. but as you've clearly demonstrated, when it comes to people with different temperaments and personalities, many like you continue to have and proudly espouse attitudes that were best forgotten in the 1950s.

I like my own space from time to time but having personal interactions is crucial to development as a rounded person.

And there we have the crux of your argument. You believe everybody should be like you in this way and are intolerant of people who are different.

This sort of "jocks against nerds", "extroverts against introverts", "you can't be successful unless you're highly social" attitude is hugely damaging to society. It's the same forces that cause children to be ashamed of their intelligence and underperform in education and life due to the (very real) threat of being bullied. It's the same anti-intellectualism that has, in part, lead to the rise of right-wing populism in many western countries. The same distrust of "experts" ("nerds" in adult form) and learned, intellectual, "cerebral" people in general that has lead to the current "an opinion is as good as a fact" position of mass-media and large segments of the public.

We should be accepting and celebrating people's differences, not trying to force them into some outdated social mold.
 

talltim

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Ive been commuting by train for 29 of the last 32 years and I’ve not particularly noticed any change in the amount strangers talk to each other. It’s always been pretty rare in my experience. Phones and computers have changed the nature of what people do when they aren’t talking (Although, remember that portable music devices have been around since the 80s). People just did other things, read a book or magazine, look out the window or just sit and think.
Ironically one of my very few interactions on a train with a stranger was a guy who asked my what I was listening to. Roll on a year or so later and turns out he is a friend of a friend who then becomes a close enough friend that many years later, my wife, toddler son and I made the trek to Trondheim for his wedding
 
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DarloRich

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You believe everybody should be like you in this way and are intolerant of people who are different

No I don't and no I haven't. The rest isnt worthy of a response as it contains a series of bizarre over actions and half baked accusations. I would also point out you know nothing about me or my life.

Excellent post mallard.

no it isnt. it is a complete over reaction and a total head loss.
 

mallard

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I would also point out you know nothing about me or my life.

A very hypocritical thing to say when you have demonstrated that you know absolutely nothing about the people you're attacking.
 

DarloRich

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What on earth gives you the right to brand other people who, by your own admission, are happy as "damaging"!?! Damaging to whom? "Damaging" to you because you feel that you're entitled to social intercourse with people who feel differently?

So you dont think it is damaging to live alone for your entire life never knowing sexual or emotional fulfillment or joy? Never having a decent circle of friends to experience things with? I think that is quite damaging but each to their own.

A very hypocritical thing to say when you have demonstrated that you know absolutely nothing about the people you're attacking.

Whatever. You have complete misrepresented what I said and lost the plot doing so. No one is forcing anyone to do anything for goodness sake!

I also haven't attacked anyone. I have offered an opinion that is seems you cant agree with. No one is offering bigotry or furthering anti intellectualism or any such silliness. As for "jocks v nerds" - WOW. That is actually making me laugh aloud. You know nothing about me or my history. Clearly! I am the least "jock" like person you would ever meet!
 

mallard

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So you dont think it is damaging to live alone for your entire life never knowing sexual or emotional fulfillment or joy?

You'd obviously be surprised to know, considering your outrageous "jock" attitude, that most "introverts", "nerds", "shutins" or whatever pejorative you decide to use, do in fact experience those things. Contrary to your beliefs, people don't need to go out clubbing every night, patroise sporting events on a regular basis or regularly engage random strangers in conversation to have a satisfying social life. Shockingly, you might say, some people are completely satisfied with just a handful of close friends and don't feel the need to have a multitude of acquaintances or engage in social "networking" (in the offline sense).

As I said, I personally identify with the term "introvert" and consider myself "prosperous". I feel no need to justify that consideration, so take of it what you will. I'm still not going to engage strangers in conversation on a train journey.

TOCs have already done everything they can to eliminate a peaceful and relaxing atmosphere (at least in standard class) on most trains, with overly bright lighting and colour schemes, announcements every 10 seconds even on a 30-minute gap between stations, etc. Forcing people into "chat carriages" on trains that are usually so crowded that you can't choose which carriage to sit in is more likely to drive people away from the train than towards it.

I also haven't attacked anyone. I have offered an opinion that is seems you cant agree with.

If you can't see how your characterising people with a different personality to you as "liv[ing] alone for [their] entire li[ves] never knowing sexual or emotional fulfillment or joy" is an attack, then you're clearly using a different definition of the word than I am.

Of course I can't agree with your odious opinion. Same goes will all similar intolerance.
 

Bletchleyite

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The old smoking carriages were the best. You could meet anyone on them, especially if the train was busy, and, the smoking bit got shorter. I'm thinking mk4's.
I met an interesting guy who got me into the "Pink Fairies", travelling from Newcastle to York.
But, those days are long gone. It was 122xx carriage that was standard class smoking.

The smoking coach was like a pub on wheels. It was also a certain place to find a seat on a busy northbound evening peak VTWC from MKC, as most people just went there for a smoke then went back to their other seat, so there was a fast turnover of passengers.
 

Bletchleyite

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Anyway I think that initiatives such as this, as well as offering the alternative of a quiet carriage, are a good idea (providing the logistics work). Give people the choice!

Half a coach of bar tables near the buffet and you've got my vote (not only that, but if the train is busy people will happily voluntarily stand there without complaining, as it's the pub, and you stand in the pub when it's busy). Less so if it's the only unreserved coach and I need to get some work done.
 

DarloRich

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You'd obviously be surprised to know, considering your outrageous "jock" attitude, that most "introverts", "nerds", "shutins" or whatever pejorative you decide to use, do in fact experience those things. Contrary to your beliefs, people don't need to go out clubbing every night, patroise sporting events on a regular basis or regularly engage random strangers in conversation to have a satisfying social life. Shockingly, you might say, some people are completely satisfied with just a handful of close friends and don't feel the need to have a multitude of acquaintances or engage in social "networking" (in the offline sense).

wow. I haven't suggested anything of the sort nor do I "regularly engage random strangers in conversation" nor engage in "social networking" just that being equipped to do so is very helpful. I maintain that many posters here are NOT so equipped. I also maintain that being able to talk to people is not something to be afraid of and is quite useful in any number of jobs at all levels of society. It has been absolutely vital in the two careers I have enjoyed

My circle of friends is quite small mainly because I didn't grow up where I now live and have had to build a new group. That is only possible through conversation and getting to know people. Each one of those friends was a complete stranger when I moved here.

I note you miss the point about sexual and emotional fulfillment. Is the lack of that damaging? I think it is. You will, of course, disagree.

BTW you used jock, introvert and nerds. Not me. "Shut in" is a known description of people who, either through choice or ability, are confined indoors. I believe it may be American in origin.

As I said, I personally identify with the term "introvert" and consider myself "prosperous". I feel no need to justify that consideration, so take of it what you will. I'm still not going to engage strangers in conversation on a train journey.

No one is making you do so and for the avoidance of doubt it would not be right for anyone to force you to do anything in this regard. The original premise of the article quoted was that conversation might help some people alleviate loneliness. Not everyone has the wonderful network of friends that you do, small or otherwise.

TOCs have already done everything they can to eliminate a peaceful and relaxing atmosphere (at least in standard class) on most trains, with overly bright lighting and colour schemes, announcements every 10 seconds even on a 30-minute gap between stations, etc. Forcing people into "chat carriages" on trains that are usually so crowded that you can't choose which carriage to sit in is more likely to drive people away from the train than towards it.

Of course I can't agree with your odious opinion. Same goes will all similar intolerance.

goodness me - this is complete wibble. Sigh.
 

DarloRich

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Half a coach of bar tables near the buffet and you've got my vote (not only that, but if the train is busy people will happily voluntarily stand there without complaining, as it's the pub, and you stand in the pub when it's busy). Less so if it's the only unreserved coach and I need to get some work done.

sounds good to me. Will there be some decent ale on?
 

433N

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Just so I know : Is arguing with strangers on the internet 'crossing divides' ?


(PS : Given up on emojis now - what be point ?)
 

mallard

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goodness me - this is complete wibble. Sigh.

Gotcha, in your world all trains have nice, relaxing levels of dimmed (at appropriate times of day) lighting, neutral colour schemes and only use the PA system when it's actually necessary. From my experience, that probably means you mainly use the train in Germany...

Here in the UK, it's nothing like that at all. Apparently the fact the LED lighting enables the production of more light for the same amount of power means that train interiors absolutely have to have clinical levels of lighting. The use of bright primary colours (esp. on Stagecoach or previously-Stagecoach franchises, as well as their buses) definitely doesn't help me relax on a long journey... I'm sure opinions vary, but dismissing a reasonably well-studied concept (different environments affect people's moods and ability to relax; LUL even use a particular shade of blue in their cab interiors for this very reason) as "wibble" is unnecessarily dismissive.

As it happens, I believe I should offer you an apology for the "strength" of my reaction to your comments. As someone who has experienced significant hostility in my life due to my personality, I was, as the kids say, "triggered" by your comments and was unnecessarily aggressive in my response. For that I am sorry.
 
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