• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

New trains for East Midlands Franchise

Status
Not open for further replies.

SPADTrap

Established Member
Joined
15 Oct 2012
Messages
2,352
Bombardier stuff is definitely diabolical quality, I'm glad to have the Electrostar well off my traction card now. I'm glad the 379s are staying well away. The best news about getting 360s is the cab view forward.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
The fact Greater Anglia have fitted dimmer more yellow internal lights to them all than First Great Eastern doesn't help them and neither does the recent poor maintenance of the air-conditioning systems. The colour scheme of a mix of green poles, purple carpets and black seats and some black carpet is also awful now, a real podge job of the original but that is nothing a proper refurbishment couldn't sort out.

They are 16 years old but the panels are still properly locked down and don't suffer from vibration (Bombardier can only wish for that!) they give a good ride, the passenger information system works well, they perform very well and fast and in general the bodywork is standing up very well, the seats are hardwearing, and I've never seen a problem with the doors, even if they are a little slow by today's standards.

I'd challenge you to find any other train that has lasted 16 years without any kind of refurbishment that is in as good nick. The only think they've had done to them since new is new seat covers and replacement carpet in the door area and some changes in First Class, they have never and will never can be repainted externally easily, which is a big factor in East Midlands choosing purple I'm told :)
The interiors are pretty vile but the rest of the units seem very solid still - I personally think the Desiro UK is the best EMU the country's ever had for build quality, certainly in the post-privatisation era. I definitely think they can last not just 30 years, but probably 40+ - given the current climate of sweating rolling stock assets they probably will.

I can't say I feel that sorry for Siemens with the Desiro City not getting as many orders as the Aventra, partly because they still had a large order with TL/SWT/GN but also because the City just doesn't have the same quality feel as the UK. It's not terrible but it definitely could be better, and that's not just down to the DfT spec or the poorer noise insultation resulting from being through-gangwayed, the electrical noise from the inverters is even worse than the Electrostar when that's something Bombardier did actually fix when they moved to the Aventra, likewise the traction electronics are noisy, the general fit & finish isn't quite as good, though admittedly still well above Bombardier's standard. They're probably the best of what we have in terms of new units still, but not by the huge margin the Desiro UK was.

Are the 158s leaving EMR franchise as well as 153 and 156??
Not that I'm aware of - as far as I can tell the 158s will be staying put.
 
Last edited:

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,164
Not that I'm aware of - as far as I can tell the 158s will be staying put.
Abellio/EMR have said the entire current fleet will be replaced. Class 360 cascade and new build for London trains, by cascade for the 15x fleet. That obviously doesn’t include the Liverpool-Nottingham service that will transfer out.
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
Abellio/EMR have said the entire current fleet will be replaced. Class 360 cascade and new build for London trains, by cascade for the 15x fleet. That obviously doesn’t include the Liverpool-Nottingham service that will transfer out.
Fair enough, I stand corrected. What with though, I can't tell. Are they after the TfW 175s? Is there any point in carrying out that replacement? New build DMUs is another matter but I assumed they'd be hoping to minimise the amount of new stock that has to be ordered.
 

Grimsby town

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2011
Messages
386
Fair enough, I stand corrected. What with though, I can't tell. Are they after the TfW 175s? Is there any point in carrying out that replacement? New build DMUs is another matter but I assumed they'd be hoping to minimise the amount of new stock that has to be ordered.

The reigonal fleet is likey to be all of WMT's class 170s, 4 class 170s from Scotrail and 171s from Southern. This would mean that all the class 158s will be released.
 

anamyd

On Moderation
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
3,011
The reigonal fleet is likey to be all of WMT's class 170s, 4 class 170s from Scotrail and 171s from Southern. This would mean that all the class 158s will be released.
don't EMT also have 153s and 156s...?
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,543
The Abellio staff side presentation says total regional fleet replacement by December 2021. May be some temporary units to allow class 153s to be withdrawn by the start of 2020.
 

jw

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2010
Messages
165
The reigonal fleet is likey to be all of WMT's class 170s, 4 class 170s from Scotrail and 171s from Southern. This would mean that all the class 158s will be released.

Do Southern have spare 171s to release to EMR or are they looking at DMU or bi-mode replacements for the 171s?
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
Yes that Desiro Verve seems more a proposal for what was won by the CAF Class 397
Siemens seem pretty aware that they got the future UK rolling stock requirement thinking bit wrong.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
Do Southern have spare 171s to release to EMR or are they looking at DMU or bi-mode replacements for the 171s?
They don't.
In this case if the 171 leave the ROSCOs (Porterbrook and Eversholt) have to arrange supply of replacement stock to GTR and DfT satisfaction (not easy). Realistically this would include bi-mode but the South Croydon to Hurst Green power supply is maxed out as is so NR works required too.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,542
Location
Redcar
I must admit my money is still on the 175s having a roll on EMR when it comes to dealing with the regional fleet.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
I must admit my money is still on the 175s having a roll on EMR when it comes to dealing with the regional fleet.
I suspect if 171s have been included in "plan A" the reality of what was required may have dawned once it was brought up with DfT and GTR hence lack of announcements.
 

Grimsby town

Member
Joined
4 Apr 2011
Messages
386
I suspect if 171s have been included in "plan A" the reality of what was required may have dawned once it was brought up with DfT and GTR hence lack of announcements.

I imagine this is the case. The fact that these haven't been announced suggests there may be issues but this was the original plan. The 175's wouldn't be available quickly enough so it may be the case that the 158s remain service for a few years yet. I imagine they will do all they can to get their hands on extra 170s instead of going for 175s.
 

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,164
I suspect if 171s have been included in "plan A" the reality of what was required may have dawned once it was brought up with DfT and GTR hence lack of announcements.
I wonder if there is confusion over this and it’s actually the remaining five Eversholt units with ScotRail (170416-420) that are moving; these were due to move to Southern but are seemingly not wanted.

I would also expect the nine Greater Anglia 156s to transfer (they are already PRM modified) initially. There are 21 153s that either need replacing or PRM work completing. The 156/170 transfer would provide 14 sets / 33 vehicles.
 

trentside

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
14 Aug 2010
Messages
3,337
Location
Messroom
Do they get new seats ? - they're particularly uncomfortable at present.

The presentation just indicated 360s modified for 110mph operation, no details on any further refurbishments. That doesn’t mean it won’t happen, just that we don’t know yet.
 

whhistle

On Moderation
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
2,636
I must admit my money is still on the 175s having a roll on EMR when it comes to dealing with the regional fleet.
I'd be surprised if they were not used too.

Although I haven't seen anyone moan about the end doors, they seem to do okay on the Welsh lines.

If Transport for Wales have dibs on some 170s, there won't be enough for EMR to have a total regional fleet of them, which is shame. They (the 170s) could do with a bit of re-engineering though. A bit slow off the mark.

Perhaps there will be a big swap of 158s and 170s with Scotrail to harmonise their fleets.
 

mallard

Established Member
Joined
12 Apr 2009
Messages
1,304
Although I haven't seen anyone moan about the end doors, they seem to do okay on the Welsh lines.

All the East Midlands 15x units are end-door versions anyway, so it's a like-for-like swap. While dwell times can be a bit slow at peak times, they seem to be fine for the most part.
 

krus_aragon

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2009
Messages
6,042
Location
North Wales
If Transport for Wales have dibs on some 170s, there won't be enough for EMR to have a total regional fleet of them, which is shame.
And while it might be nice (in theory) for TfW to keep some 175s for West Wales services instead of acquiring Greater Anglia's 170s, TfW need both fleets to tide them over until 2021/22 when the new Civity fleet comes online. (The 170s are indirectly replacing Pacers.)

I'm not sure whether releasing 170s instead of 175s from 2021 would be of any use.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
Batteries made from unobtainium...
Unfortunately for Siemens the Bombardier and Hitachi options can come with diesel.

Siemens too distracted by cost cutting and mergers for the last 5 years to focus properly on future products.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top