Season Ticket - Holmwood to Three Bridges

JDA · 29 May 2019

Hi,

Just joined as I only (!) want to buy the best value annual season ticket to get from my home (by Holmwood station) to my new place of work midway between Three Bridges and Gatwick Airport.

I was originally looking at HLM-TBD tickets, at £1820. Inspired by threads on here and MSE, I took at look at options for a cheaper ticket or "free" local travel - to Horsham & Dorking most useful, Leatherhead & Redhill nice to have.

Yesterday my best choice was Holmwood-Salfords at £1388 (ATOC calc says it allows routing via Dorking/Horsham+Gatwick/Redhill, plus via Leatherhead-Epsom-Croydon: AR, DK+XE+VB, LB, LP, SD, SD+LF, XC).

Unfortunately that had gone up to £1824 when I re-checked it; possible they noticed my searches, possible fat fingers. Dorking-SAF is still £1388 but doesn't allow routing through GTW (or, therefore, HLM).

The best I can now find is DKG-GTW at £1672, routing DK+XE+VB, SD, SD+LF.

I also see DKG-Horley at £1412 and DKG-Redhill at £1040, but don't believe these to be valid for routing via Horsham (for DKG-HOR GTW routing is fare-rule-barred and for DKG-RDH both ends are routing points/groups)

However! A standard DKG-RDH return ticket via HRH always costs exactly the same as a direct ticket (£5.90 anytime, £4.40 off-peak) on the NR Journey Planner. Does this mean I can (equipped with a printout of said journey?) use the DKG-RDH season ticket to travel both ways around the DKG-RDH-TBD-HRH loop anyway? Or do I have any other options I might have missed please?

Many thanks for any help/directions!

RailUK Forums

JB_B · 29 May 2019

JDA said:
I also see DRK-Horley at £1412 and DRK-Redhill at £1040, but don't believe these to be valid for routing via Horsham (for DRK-HOR GTW routing is fare-rule-barred and for DRK-RDH both ends are routing points/groups)

However...

As you've observed there's is no mapped route for these journeys via Horsham.

National rail enquiries (and at least some retailers) will offer Dorking(Main) [DGK!] to Redhill via Horsham.

I would guess that's because it's within 3m of the shortest route wholly by rail between Dorking(Main) to Redhill.

JDA · 29 May 2019

Sorry, fixed the code for Dorking to DKG, thought I’d got them all but apparently not!

Thank you for the suggestion - does that imply a season ticket for DKG-RDH would indeed be valid for travel all the way round the loop?

JDA · 30 May 2019

Had another look at this and think I now grasp the point. DKG (Dorking Main) is on the Holmwood line; it’s DPD (Dorking Deepdene) that’s on the Redhill line.

So yes, via Horsham is the quickest route by rail only...i.e. discounting the 3 minute walk to DPD from DKG.

Sure enough, at some times of the day (but not times I want to travel!) the NR planner will give DKG-RDH through Horsham even without asking to go via there specifically. All again the same price.

Does this then remove the obstacle of the specified routes being from the Dorking Group to the Redhill Group via AR or XC only though? A combination of those easily allows the routing, but that’s not what the Routing Guide says and there seems to be no easement in play.

Edit: played with this idea a bit more. Dorking(Main)-Salfords gives routing via Horsham on the exact train I want to get on, so that seems a winner even though the routing calc explicitly disallows going via GTW (which this would) due to fare rules. Back to £1388, unless DKG-RDH is valid at all times due to NR giving it as a routing at a particular time, which would then allow £1040?

Further edit: NRCoT 13.3... If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:
a) any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;
b) by any services (including any change of trains) over the shortest route
which can be used by scheduled passenger services between the stations
shown on your Ticket;
c) any other routes as shown in the ‘National Routeing Guide'

So I don’t need to fulfil c) as b) is fulfilled by DKG-RDH via HRH (and NR will indeed sell me a ticket for that routing at certain times of day). Correct?

Further further edit: Dorking-Betchworth at £660 seems open to the same method. This can be bought via Horsham for the same price as the obvious route via Deepdene (DKG-BTO via or not via HRH £3.10, DPD-BTO via HRH £17.90, not via HRH £3.10).

But does having to add the “Via” to the journey planner myself (or tell it to find Thameslink only, or avoid Deepdene, either also does the job), or the fact that Dorking Main and Deepdene are in a Station Group, invalidate the result?

Box Hill & Westhumble to Dorking Deepdene at £368 is a related method and even cheaper, but that has higher prices for the single journey when forced through Horsham and so seems invalid.

More’s the pity as that is still the shortest rail route without a walk between stations! Unsure if that outcome is evidence for or against my other proposals being legitimate...

JDA · 30 May 2019

Had a look through the forums for relevant posts and found a few bits. Putting these together with the above...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/upper-tyndrum-uty-lower-tyndrum-tyl-fares.55911/#post-878385
Example of NRE giving Betchworth-Dorking another “long way round” as a valid routing. Appears also to bring in Guildford and Leatherhead as valid destinations and in fact that’s the shortest route:

Dorking-Leatherhead = 4mi 6ch (NRT 4.0)
Leatherhead-Guildford = 12mi 79ch (NRT 13.0)
Guildford-Betchworth = 15mi 58ch (NRT 16.0)
Total = 32mi 63ch (NRT 33.0)

Dorking-Horsham = 13mi 30ch (NRT 13.75)
Horsham-Redhill = 18mi 6ch (NRT 17.5)
Redhill-Betchworth = 4mi 57ch (NRT 4.75)
Total = 36mi 13ch (NRT 36.0)

Difference is actually 3mi 30ch, but 3.0mi per NRT, with booking engines allowing this due to accuracy concerns.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/common-routeing-point.81617/#post-1413347
Discusses Dorking, and walking, and shortest routes, links to a calc which reckons I can also travel via stations as far away as Norwood Junction!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/not-london.80802/#post-1397332
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/not-london.80802/#post-1397600
Verifying walks cannot be part of the defined “shortest route”, so both above routes are valid, as Dorking Deepdene can safely be ignored simply by starting from Dorking Main.

Also that it would cause major problems for this policy to change either way...handy that!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/double-back-question.89327/#post-1555611
Similar argument involving Deepdene.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/shortest-route-rule.64585/#post-1072113
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/shortest-route-rule.64585/#post-1072173
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/shortest-route-rule.64585/#post-1072227
“Shortest route” and walking discussion - some of it about Dorking itself.

Suggests tickets with “Stations” designator (which my proposed ST would have I think, unless Dorking (Main) will sell me one from there exclusively?) use the shortest rail journey from a group member - which would be Deepdene.

However, notes that NR website allows both routings - on which I concur.

My problem appears to be crystallising around whether I can choose to travel the shortest route by rail from Dorking (Main) on an ST from Dorking (Any). If I can, the proposed ticket covers all travel on the entire loop around Dorking, Horsham, Crawley and Redhill, plus the ones around Dorking, Guildford and Leatherhead, plus various destinations up to Croydon and beyond...should be a popular purchase I’d think!

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/group-stations.44257/
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/group-stations.44257/#post-641958
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/group-stations.44257/#post-642143
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/group-stations.44257/#post-643141
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/group-stations.44257/page-3#post-667978
That exact debate, around Bradford rather than Dorking, but the same situation,

States ATOC have specified that a walk counts as 0 miles for shortest trip purposes, but then later clarifies that this actually seems not to be the case!

General view that the analogue (Bradford-New Pudsey) case is valid, and if so, the Dorking-Betchworth case should be as well. However, a response from ATOC towards the end of the thread states otherwise...and then contradicts itself.

Fun and games!

I think where I end up is that it’s nonsensical, and perhaps shouldn’t be allowed, but since NR will sell singles with this routing due to their faulty implementation, a season ticket should also be valid?

JDA · 2 Jun 2019

Distilled version of the above; I identified the core principle and priced up possible alternatives that could take advantage of the Dorking Main/Deepdene line arrangement.

That is:
- DKG/DPD to each of the two neighbouring stations on the "other" line (Box Hill & Westhumble, Holmwood, Dorking West, Betchworth)
- Each of those pairs to each other
- Gomshall to the three other branches, as Dorking West behaves inconsistently
- Dorking West to Dorking Deepdene for interest (it's on sale as a season ticket with the two Dorking stations named)
- DKG/DPD to each of the first stations in each direction on the "other" line outside the Dorking Group (Leatherhead, Horsham, Guildford, Redhill)
- Every station on the Dorking-Horsham-Redhill loop to every other

I'm not going to paste the resulting 132 rows of data here (I've posted quite enough!), just a few choice entries representing the best of each situation, dependent on a potential's user's attitude to inconvenience and/or unpleasant conversations with staff that haven't spent so long poring over it:

1) Dorking Main - Betchworth: Max Saving
Season Ticket = £660
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £3.10
NRE Single via Horsham = £3.10
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - Yes
Routing Method = Common RP (DKG Group)
Shortest Rail Route = 33mi via Leatherhead & Guildford

2) Dorking West - Holmwood: Best with no Endpoint in the Dorking Main - Deepdene Pairing
Season Ticket = £1012
NRE Single via walk to Dorking Main = £3.50
NRE Single via Redhill = £3.50
Have to add "Via Redhill" to NRE manually - Yes
Routing Method = Common RP (DKG Group)
Shortest Rail Route = 34mi via Redhill & Horsham

3) Dorking Main - Redhill: Best with an Endpoint Outside the Dorking Routing Group
Season Ticket = £1040
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £4.30 OP/£5.30 AT
NRE Single via Horsham = £4.30 OP/£5.30 AT
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - Yes
Routing Method = Dorking Group via AR/XC to Redhill Group
Shortest Rail Route = 28.5mi via South Croydon & Redhill

4) Dorking Main - Earlswood: Best NRE Will Offer without Adding "Via" Manually
Season Ticket = £1388
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £4.90 OP/£5.30 AT
NRE Single via Horsham = £4.90 OP/£5.30 AT
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - No
Routing Method = Dorking Group via AR/XC to Redhill Group
Shortest Rail Route = 29.25mi via South Croydon & Redhill

5) Ockley - Betchworth: Best with no Endpoint in Dorking
Season Ticket = £1616
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £5.30
NRE Single via Horsham = £5.30
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - No
Routing Method = Dorking Group via AR/XC to Redhill Group
Shortest Rail Route = 28.25mi via Horsham & Redhill

6) Dorking Main - Gatwick Airport: Best ATOC-Mapped Route
Season Ticket = £1672
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £6.50 OP/£8.90 AT
NRE Single via Horsham = £6.50 OP/£8.90 AT
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - Yes
Routing Method = Dorking Group via DK+XE+VB/SD/SD+LF to Redhill Group
Shortest Rail Route = 25mi via Horsham

7) Holmwood - Three Bridges: Marketed Ticket
Season Ticket = £1820
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £11.20
NRE Single via Horsham = £7.20
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - Yes
Routing Method = Horsham via DK+XE+VB/SD/SD+LF to Three Bridges
Shortest Rail Route = 17.25mi via Horsham

Inviting thoughts...

infobleep · 3 Jun 2019

JDA said:
Distilled version of the above; I identified the core principle and priced up possible alternatives that could take advantage of the Dorking Main/Deepdene line arrangement.

That is:
- DKG/DPD to each of the two neighbouring stations on the "other" line (Box Hill & Westhumble, Holmwood, Dorking West, Betchworth)
- Each of those pairs to each other
- Gomshall to the three other branches, as Dorking West behaves inconsistently
- Dorking West to Dorking Deepdene for interest (it's on sale as a season ticket with the two Dorking stations named)
- DKG/DPD to each of the first stations in each direction on the "other" line outside the Dorking Group (Leatherhead, Horsham, Guildford, Redhill)
- Every station on the Dorking-Horsham-Redhill loop to every other

I'm not going to paste the resulting 132 rows of data here (I've posted quite enough!), just a few choice entries representing the best of each situation, dependent on a potential's user's attitude to inconvenience and/or unpleasant conversations with staff that haven't spent so long poring over it:

1) Dorking Main - Betchworth: Max Saving
Season Ticket = £660
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £3.10
NRE Single via Horsham = £3.10
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - Yes
Routing Method = Common RP (DKG Group)
Shortest Rail Route = 33mi via Leatherhead & Guildford

2) Dorking West - Holmwood: Best with no Endpoint in the Dorking Main - Deepdene Pairing
Season Ticket = £1012
NRE Single via walk to Dorking Main = £3.50
NRE Single via Redhill = £3.50
Have to add "Via Redhill" to NRE manually - Yes
Routing Method = Common RP (DKG Group)
Shortest Rail Route = 34mi via Redhill & Horsham

3) Dorking Main - Redhill: Best with an Endpoint Outside the Dorking Routing Group
Season Ticket = £1040
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £4.30 OP/£5.30 AT
NRE Single via Horsham = £4.30 OP/£5.30 AT
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - Yes
Routing Method = Dorking Group via AR/XC to Redhill Group
Shortest Rail Route = 28.5mi via South Croydon & Redhill

4) Dorking Main - Earlswood: Best NRE Will Offer without Adding "Via" Manually
Season Ticket = £1388
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £4.90 OP/£5.30 AT
NRE Single via Horsham = £4.90 OP/£5.30 AT
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - No
Routing Method = Dorking Group via AR/XC to Redhill Group
Shortest Rail Route = 29.25mi via South Croydon & Redhill

5) Ockley - Betchworth: Best with no Endpoint in Dorking
Season Ticket = £1616
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £5.30
NRE Single via Horsham = £5.30
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - No
Routing Method = Dorking Group via AR/XC to Redhill Group
Shortest Rail Route = 28.25mi via Horsham & Redhill

6) Dorking Main - Gatwick Airport: Best ATOC-Mapped Route
Season Ticket = £1672
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £6.50 OP/£8.90 AT
NRE Single via Horsham = £6.50 OP/£8.90 AT
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - Yes
Routing Method = Dorking Group via DK+XE+VB/SD/SD+LF to Redhill Group
Shortest Rail Route = 25mi via Horsham

7) Holmwood - Three Bridges: Marketed Ticket
Season Ticket = £1820
NRE Single via walk to Deepdene = £11.20
NRE Single via Horsham = £7.20
Have to add "Via Horsham" to NRE manually - Yes
Routing Method = Horsham via DK+XE+VB/SD/SD+LF to Three Bridges
Shortest Rail Route = 17.25mi via Horsham

Inviting thoughts...

That is really interesting. I think a lot of staff wouldn't know any about valid routes and routing guides and just what they think is reasonable.

This is why people can get hassled when travelling on a valid route that staff think can't possibly be valid so they say it isn't.

Equally though there will be invalid routes that staff would consider reasonable and are unlikely to challenage.

JDA · 17 Jun 2019

Update: just did a trial run using an anytime day single.

Bought from the Southern website as GWR (which NRE links to if trying to buy through that) will not give results via Horsham, presumably as they don’t operate it! £3.10 Betchworth-Dorking, vs. £7.20 Three Bridges-Holmwood.

Ticket has no endorsements and appears to be a standard ADS, specifies break of journey is valid (hence so are en-route start and finish, per NRCoT), and I selected to collect from Three Bridges. Sadly it didn’t operate the barriers there - I was waved through but this may be a pain going forward.

Of course, were I getting on at Betchworth and off at Holmwood not a single barrier would be seen! Also got ticket checked on the Horsham-Holmwood leg, passed muster with no comments, but this is a train to Dorking so the more “sensible” leg. Do they know (or care) where Betchworth is I wonder?

I can get a subsidised bus pass for slightly more/same as/a bit less than a train season ticket if weekly/monthly/annually respectively, so considering that as an options now. Would also avoid the walk to the station and awkward conversations at the TBD barriers!

JB_B · 18 Jun 2019

JDA said:
Update: just did a trial run using an anytime day single.

Bought from the Southern website as GWR (which NRE links to if trying to buy through that) will not give results via Horsham, presumably as they don’t operate it! £3.10 Betchworth-Dorking, vs. £7.20 Three Bridges-Holmwood.

The operator is irrelevant - apart from TOC-restricted tickets retail sites should impartially offer any relevant valid journeys irrespective of the operators involved.

After adding Horsham as a via point I had no difficulty obtaining an itinerary using this ticket for a similar journey from the Southern website.

You are taking a potentially highly contentious route so I would recommend that you keep a printout/copy of the itinerary with you when making this journey.

James Wake · 18 Jun 2019

Whereabouts in the Three Bridges/Gatwick area are you going to be? You could get the 21 bus if the times suit from Holmwood to Crawley then change onto another bus that takes you where you want to go. Or on weekdays from Dorking there’s the 22 that heads to Crawley too, via Gatwick South Terminal and Manor Royal on its way into Crawley.

Season Ticket - Holmwood to Three Bridges

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