Hull Trains 180 problems again

Jozhua · 17 Jun 2019

Probably a mixture of the engines and the overall design!

Interesting to hear that DMUs can be more difficult to maintain, not aware of many other countries that run 6/7 car DMUs over loco hauled in almost all circumstances.

I reckon two engines and fairly simple design is probably why the HST has stayed in service for so long, especially on the most taxing high speed routes!

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matacaster · 17 Jun 2019

Possibly slightly off-topic (please move to new thread if so mods) but it would seem that maintainability of class 180 does not seem to have been considered in any depth by the original design team (or they got it wrong). There are other classes of both locomotive and multiple unit which I believe have been difficult to maintain. The original design team will obviously save money if they don't worry about maintainability, there is more than a chance this will occur when the original builder has no on-going maintenance responsibility.

Is the way to go either

a) have a validation process during procurement where maintenance is considered by experienced maintenance chaps
b) have deals like with the 185's (I think) where Seimens maintains them for many years - they therefore have every incentive to make maintenance easier.

matacaster · 17 Jun 2019

TheWalrus said:
In regards to the 180s would they be better on less strenuous work, more local or interurban services? How did they perform on these type of services during their short time with Northern?

No, we oop north do NOT want them, nor does anyone else with any sense apart from Booths at Rotherham.

F Great Eastern · 17 Jun 2019

matacaster said:
b) have deals like with the 185's (I think) where Seimens maintains them for many years - they therefore have every incentive to make maintenance easier.

First and GE management at the time wanted the full service arrangement for the Desiro 360s exactly to prevent issues that had happened with the 175s and 180s by sister operating companies. However you have to remember those were the days when real railwaymen ran the shop and proper hands on operational people as well as finance people, rather than the current situation where bid managers run the show. Sadly Bob Breakwell is now long since retired and Dave Kaye was lost to the industry when First lost the franchise.

I remember when they were introduced Dave Kaye at the time was at pains to say that thanks to this agreement the relationship between the manufacturer, lessor, and the operator was vastly better because it prevented a blame culture from developing and made everyone work together and get any issues sorted without any tensions and said they were immensely proud at the fleet they delivered as they believed that they did it properly and not on the cheap. They were devastated when they didn't keep the franchise.

Unfortunately these days bid managers very much have full service contracts in their sights and want to go back to more in-house maintenance, which is fine if done properly, but the trouble is that sooner or later a TOC gets tempted to scrimp on non essential maintenance to save a few quid.

ainsworth74 · 17 Jun 2019

Ben Bow said:
Many units run around with one of the three engines isolated, but they can mostly keep to the schedules even on two engines (York to Newcastle is a struggle on two) so perhaps it isn't as noticeable.

Are you sure that isn't just eco-mode which shuts an engine down when not required?

Ben Bow · 17 Jun 2019

ainsworth74 said:
Are you sure that isn't just eco-mode which shuts an engine down when not required?

No, you need 3 engines to get to 100mph to keep within time allowances. Once at 100 two engines are fine. Most drivers switch off Eco mode anyway.

JonathanH · 17 Jun 2019

Journey check shows six cancellations tomorrow

The diagram starting 0604 Beverley to Kings Cross cancelled in its entirity, ie 0604 BEV-KGX, 0948 KGX-HUL, 1233 HUL-KGX, 1548 KGX-BEV plus 1912 HUL-KGX, the 0726 from Kings Cross cancelled for its first leg with the HST working in its place from 1033 Hull to Kings Cross onwards

TheWalrus · 18 Jun 2019

matacaster said:
No, we oop north do NOT want them, nor does anyone else with any sense apart from Booths at Rotherham.

What I’m asking is how they performed on these type of services, regardless of whether the type of service is in the North or not?

humbersidejim · 18 Jun 2019

In the last round of 180 related cancellations, the alternative routings via Sheffield or the bus to Peterborough lead to some painfully long journeys.

At least better ticket acceptance has been arranged this time around; most HT customers will arrive at their destinations within half an hour of the scheduled time thanks to a change to LNER at Doncaster.

That's a big improvement.

Bikeman78 · 18 Jun 2019

Bletchleyite said:
And EMT want to take this garbage on? The lot of the Coradia units need to go straight to scrap.

Are they seriously going to use 180s? That's a lot of training cost for such a small number of units. They are so unreliable they'll probably do more harm than good.

F Great Eastern · 18 Jun 2019

Bikeman78 said:
Are they seriously going to use 180s? That's a lot of training cost for such a small number of units. They are so unreliable they'll probably do more harm than good.

At the end of the day bid managers thought it was a good idea, the fact that operationally it seems to be questionable, at least in my opinion, is neither here or there.

If it was anything like their bid for the Greater Anglia Franchise bid that insiders on here have previously talked about, it's likely that operations had little input. Be interesting to see the make-up of their senior team.

Max · 18 Jun 2019

Folks, with my moderation hat on for a moment I'd just like to offer a gentle reminder that this thread is about Hull Trains' very unreliable 180s. There's a separate thread about EMR's future units here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-trains-for-east-midlands-franchise.180920/page-25

Mod hat off, does this exchange mean that all the 180s have now failed and HT are down to the HST only? https://twitter.com/Hull_Trains/status/1141024578099130368?s=19
This combined with the problems at Peterborough have all but wiped out the service today.

HullRailMan · 18 Jun 2019

At this stage, yes. Just the HST in service. However, a 180 is back in the sidings at Hull (wasn’t there earlier) along with the second HST. Only the 0727 KGX-HUL cancelled tomorrow so far.

Shaw S Hunter · 19 Jun 2019

TheWalrus said:
What I’m asking is how they performed on these type of services, regardless of whether the type of service is in the North or not?

One of the design features of the Class 180 is hydrodynamic braking. However the retarders proved to be unreliable and they have run with them isolated for many years. The friction braking (discs) is still sufficient for safe operation but tends to wear the brakes out very quickly. This wear is worse when the units are used on stopping services: I believe Northern was having to replace the pads every 3 days! So using them on stopping services will lead to a higher maintenance requirement in terms of down time. Other than that they were nice units both to travel on and work even if Newton Heath never seemed to fully get to grips with the air conditioning. As such I would suggest that collective operating experience will lead to (any) future use continuing to be on "mainline" services.

HullRailMan · 19 Jun 2019

Well, if today is the day it was meant to get better, it hasn’t worked. 0604 Beverley -Kings Cross cancelled at 0609. Second day in a row their main, morning peak service hasn’t run. Even worse for HT ticket acceptance is for the 0700 LNER from Hull, a brand new Azuma, to show off the fancy train the competition has haha

F Great Eastern · 19 Jun 2019

HullRailMan said:
Well, if today is the day it was meant to get better, it hasn’t worked. 0604 Beverley -Kings Cross cancelled at 0609. Second day in a row their main, morning peak service hasn’t run. Even worse for HT ticket acceptance is for the 0700 LNER from Hull, a brand new Azuma, to show off the fancy train the competition has haha

If only they were getting something similar.....oh hang on!!!

Max · 19 Jun 2019

HullRailMan said:
Well, if today is the day it was meant to get better, it hasn’t worked. 0604 Beverley -Kings Cross cancelled at 0609. Second day in a row their main, morning peak service hasn’t run. Even worse for HT ticket acceptance is for the 0700 LNER from Hull, a brand new Azuma, to show off the fancy train the competition has haha

I can perhaps understand why HT have tried to avoid deploying the HST on this service, due to the clearance issues to Beverley, but if I were them I would be doing everything I could to make sure the first two southbound services run (even if they have to start at Hull). It does seem to be a bit odd to cancel your premium peak time service yet still run the 10:33, which I would assume would mainly be used by leisure passengers.

7522 · 19 Jun 2019

Problems ongoing as 12:33 from Hull and 15:48 return now been cancelled.

rustbucket · 19 Jun 2019

7522 said:
Problems ongoing as 12:33 from Hull and 15:48 return now been cancelled.

Looks like that is the whole diagram cancelled for the day then as I doubt they'll bother with the 19.12 Hul-KGX as thats usually the first to go!

whhistle · 19 Jun 2019

I do feel for Hull Trains, but also admire them for their tries to keep the whole thing running.

humbersidejim · 19 Jun 2019

I'm absolutely amazed anyone wants to take these units on in any capacity once HT are finally shut of them.

F Great Eastern · 19 Jun 2019

humbersidejim said:
I'm absolutely amazed anyone wants to take these units on in any capacity once HT are finally shut of them.

The people who are specifying and writing the bids are usually not the same ones who are working in engineering or operations, which explains a lot.....

westv · 19 Jun 2019

whhistle said:
I do feel for Hull Trains, but also admire them for their tries to keep the whole thing running.

I don't think they do themselves any favours when they post tweets trumpeting "Another 100% service day" on days there no cancellations.

samuelmorris · 19 Jun 2019

westv said:
I don't think they do themselves any favours when they post tweets trumpeting "Another 100% service day" on days there no cancellations.

It's such a rarity these days it seems, delivering the status quo is something to be celebrated!

HullRailMan · 22 Jun 2019

Cancellations and alterations galore today and tomorrow, some seemingly planned and others last minute. That suggests another unit has packed up after being brought back in to service.

Most alternative options tomorrow are coaches to/from Peterborough connecting with GTR to Kings Cross. The alternative from Doncaster for one southbound service routes via Sheffield to London with an arrival time almost three hours later than scheduled!

Whether these issues are the fault of HT or not, they seem to be becoming experts in hacking their passengers off. Even their twitter responded over the past few days have often been passive aggressive at best. Hey ho.

7522 · 23 Jun 2019

Looks like Hull Trains have been using 2 HST's at the same time this week. They are planning to do this tomorrow too based on their twitter posts. This is the first time I have known them do this.

a_c_skinner · 23 Jun 2019

This isn't off topic, but it is a bit tangential: why on earth did HT go from their 222s to 180s? 180s reliability was a well known problem.

Darandio · 23 Jun 2019

a_c_skinner said:
This isn't off topic, but it is a bit tangential: why on earth did HT go from their 222s to 180s? 180s reliability was a well known problem.

Increased seating capacity was one consideration.

whhistle · 24 Jun 2019

a_c_skinner said:
This isn't off topic, but it is a bit tangential: why on earth did HT go from their 222s to 180s? 180s reliability was a well known problem.

Didn't the government sort of force HT into this to give more units to EMT for a Corby service?

rustbucket · 24 Jun 2019

whhistle said:
Didn't the government sort of force HT into this to give more units to EMT for a Corby service?

Correct

Meanwhile today it looks like they only have 1 out of 4 180s fit for service + the HST

Hull Trains 180 problems again

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