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SWR Weekend Super Off Peak + Travelcard restrictions

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cvinall

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I am planning to travel with my daughter (aged 12), and a Friends & Family Railcard, from Weybridge to Waterloo, then on to Leicester Square by tube, and back, this coming Saturday. Outward around 14:00, returning around 17:00. I am aware of the strikes and changes to train times.
Journey planner, and the SWR website, suggest a 'weekend super off peak' ticket is not valid for the return journey at that time. However, it also says that, for tickets that include a travelcard, they are valid for journeys entirely within z1-6, and, that only journeys starting at London stations are restricted in the evening (Waterloo, Vauxhall, Clapham Jcn).

So, is my logic sound, that, with Weybridge to 'Travelcard Z1-6' tickets, the Waterloo to Surbiton section (last Z6 station) would be valid at that time, due to it being entirely within z1-6. And a Surbiton to Weybridge journey would also be valid, due to it not originating at one of the named London stations where the evening restriction applies? If so, what is the difference between a through journey (stopping at Surbiton) - apparently not valid, and two separate journeys - apparently valid? Doesn't the fact that the train stops, allow me to consider it as two journeys, as for split-ticketing? Also, how would anyone know the difference, when travelling on paper tickets?
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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I am planning to travel with my daughter (aged 12), and a Friends & Family Railcard, from Weybridge to Waterloo, then on to Leicester Square by tube, and back, this coming Saturday. Outward around 14:00, returning around 17:00. I am aware of the strikes and changes to train times.
Journey planner, and the SWR website, suggest a 'weekend super off peak' ticket is not valid for the return journey at that time. However, it also says that, for tickets that include a travelcard, they are valid for journeys entirely within z1-6, and, that only journeys starting at London stations are restricted in the evening (Waterloo, Vauxhall, Clapham Jcn).

So, is my logic sound, that, with Weybridge to 'Travelcard Z1-6' tickets, the Waterloo to Surbiton section (last Z6 station) would be valid at that time, due to it being entirely within z1-6. And a Surbiton to Weybridge journey would also be valid, due to it not originating at one of the named London stations where the evening restriction applies? If so, what is the difference between a through journey (stopping at Surbiton) - apparently not valid, and two separate journeys - apparently valid? Doesn't the fact that the train stops, allow me to consider it as two journeys, as for split-ticketing? Also, how would anyone know the difference, when travelling on paper tickets?
The restriction is on boarding at the named stations, as you say. That means you can board the restricted trains as long as you only travel within the London Zones, but you can't remain on the train outside the London Zones.

Of course, there is nothing to stop you getting off the train at a station not named in the restriction code text, and boarding it (or the following service) again. However, if SWR became wise to a lot of people doing this then they might change the restriction code to prevent this being done.

Your Travelcard is likely to work the barriers within the London Zones, but it might not work the barriers at Weybridge upon exit. You might be queried as to where you boarded the train, and be asked to pay an excess fare if you boarded during a restricted time at a named station.
 
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yorkie

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So, is my logic sound, that, with Weybridge to 'Travelcard Z1-6' tickets, the Waterloo to Surbiton section (last Z6 station) would be valid at that time, due to it being entirely within z1-6.
Absolutely; it would be unlawful for SWR to refuse to accept such a ticket for that journey.
And a Surbiton to Weybridge journey would also be valid, due to it not originating at one of the named London stations where the evening restriction applies?
That's correct.
If so, what is the difference between a through journey (stopping at Surbiton) - apparently not valid, and two separate journeys - apparently valid?
That's a difficult question.

In order to avoid any potential accusation of not making two separate journeys, I would strongly recommend exiting from a train and boarding a different train.

It's difficult to argue that your ticket is valid if you boarded it at Waterloo and did not exit the train; you could argue stepping off the train onto the platform and re-boarding the same train would count as making separate journeys, but I wouldn't risk it.

It shouldn't be hard to find a train booked to call at Surbiton before yours; there are a lot of trains to Surbiton.
Doesn't the fact that the train stops, allow me to consider it as two journeys, as for split-ticketing?
The colloquial term "split ticketing" refers to using two or more tickets for one journey. That is the opposite of what you intend to do.
 

Silverdale

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The restriction is on boarding at the named stations, as you say. That means you can board the restricted trains as long as you only travel within the London Zones, but you can't remain on the train outside the London Zones.

The restrictions applying to the "Weekend Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard", (UR) and the plain old "Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard", (BE) are superficially similar. And while the former has the "If boarding at.." wording it does not have the easement, "valid at any time where journeys are wholly within London Zones 1-6" wording.

While I'm not a fares expert, my reading of the restriction (UR) is that without that easement/wording, there is no scope to use the Weekend version of the ticket to depart from Waterloo between 16:00 and 18:30, even if the journey (as far as Surbiton) is wholly within Zones 1-6.
 

Bletchleyite

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The restrictions applying to the "Weekend Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard", (UR) and the plain old "Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard", (BE) are superficially similar. And while the former has the "If boarding at.." wording it does not have the easement, "valid at any time where journeys are wholly within London Zones 1-6" wording.

While I'm not a fares expert, my reading of the restriction (UR) is that without that easement/wording, there is no scope to use the Weekend version of the ticket to depart from Waterloo between 16:00 and 18:30, even if the journey (as far as Surbiton) is wholly within Zones 1-6.

I don't see why that wording would be necessary, because the Travelcard component is a TfL product and follows their rules. The restrictions on the ticket are of no relevance.
 

Bill Badger

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The restrictions applying to the "Weekend Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard", (UR) and the plain old "Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard", (BE) are superficially similar. And while the former has the "If boarding at.." wording it does not have the easement, "valid at any time where journeys are wholly within London Zones 1-6" wording.

While I'm not a fares expert, my reading of the restriction (UR) is that without that easement/wording, there is no scope to use the Weekend version of the ticket to depart from Waterloo between 16:00 and 18:30, even if the journey (as far as Surbiton) is wholly within Zones 1-6.

Whilst I appreciate it is not part of the formal conditions of the ticket the SWR Website makes it very clear that the Travelcard component can be used on their services during the evening restriction period.
 

Bletchleyite

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Whilst I appreciate it is not part of the formal conditions of the ticket the SWR Website makes it very clear that the Travelcard component can be used on their services during the evening restriction period.

And if it wasn't they'd be in breach of the agreement they signed with TfL to issue and accept Travelcards, which have a unified set of terms and conditions across all operators which do not include evening peak restrictions.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Whilst I appreciate it is not part of the formal conditions of the ticket the SWR Website makes it very clear that the Travelcard component can be used on their services during the evening restriction period.
The notion of website statements not forming a part of consumers' contracts is a myth perpetuated by companies who like to breach their legal obligations.

If you see a statement published by, or on behalf of, a trader, relating to a particular product, then if the statement in any way informs your purchasing decision (e.g. whether or not a Weekend Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard is appropriate for your intended travel), or post-purchase contractual decisions you make (e.g. whether the ticket you hold is valid for a certain train) - it has become an enforceable term of the contract. C.f. Section 50(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015.
 

Silverdale

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I don't see why that wording would be necessary, because the Travelcard component is a TfL product and follows their rules. The restrictions on the ticket are of no relevance.

I did consider it odd, but as you say, may be just a case of unnecessary wording in restriction BE.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Possibly just clarification rather than having any legal effect.
It doesn't change the legal position, which is that the Travelcard portion of the ticket is valid for unlimited travel on all included modes during the time-wise validity of the ticket. If it weren't named a "Travelcard" then it might.
 
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Joe Paxton

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I don't see why that wording would be necessary, because the Travelcard component is a TfL product and follows their rules. The restrictions on the ticket are of no relevance.

The Travelcard is actually a joint TfL & TOC product - the TOC end is managed via the London Schemes Council at RDG (nee ATOC).

It was developed jointly by London Transport and BR in the 80's, initially under the name Capitalcard, taking inspiration from the success of the LT-only Travelcard. In 1989 the Capitalcard was renamed the Travelcard, and the LT-only Travelcard ceased to be (although the concept was later resurrected in the 90's in the form of the LT Card, which was London Transport's way of offering a Travelcard-esque ticket with validity in the morning peak - at the time the recently privatised TOCs were not interested in a Peak/Anytime Day Travelcard, though they eventually came round to this, leading to the demise of the LT Card).
 

yorkie

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While I'm not a fares expert, my reading of the restriction (UR) is that without that easement/wording, there is no scope to use the Weekend version of the ticket to depart from Waterloo between 16:00 and 18:30, even if the journey (as far as Surbiton) is wholly within Zones 1-6.
Any such restriction would be unlawful.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...3/attach/html/3/Travelcard Agreement 1995.pdf
....Conditions of Carriage shall not prevent, inhibit, or otherwise restrict the use of
Travelcards in accordance with, or otherwise contradict, the provisions set out in this
Agreement and in particular shall not, except as provided in the Operating Schedule,
prohibit or restrict the use at any time of Travelcards on all routes within the Zones
for which the Travelcards are valid....
 

joncombe

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I've been trying to get this issue resolved for a long time. I get nowhere with it. Is there anyone that works in the industry that could help me please? I have correspondence with National Rail over the issue and SWR but nothing has actually changed as a result.

Consider the following journey

Woking to London Euston. Depart at 7am. Return at 9pm on a Saturday. If you put this into National Rail journey planner you will see some journeys priced at £24.60 and some at £20.10. The difference is those where it is quicker (or at least, the planner thinks it is) to change at Clapham Junction and go into Victoria and take the tube rather than stay on the train to Waterloo and take the tube. In the former case, it applies the restriction that you cannot board a train departing Clapham Junction at this time (and hence need the more expensive "Off Peak" not "Super Off Peak"), even those this station is within the Travelcard zone and the rest of the journey is in the Travelcard zones, where no time restrictions apply. I don't believe going via Victoria is any quicker in practice anyway, but that's a different matter.

If you try the same on the SWR website it will ONLY offer the £24.60 price. If you telephone SWR they will offer you the lower £20.10 price - but their website won't. You will get differing results with different journey planners.

I have also spoken to NRE about this. They are *adamant* that what their website does is correct because the restriction talks about trains departing from Clapham Junction at a specific time and don't seem to understand this applies to the part of the journey travelling back out of the zones, and not within the zones. I've confirmed with TFL also that there are no time restrictions, but NRE simply won't have it. The last correspondence I had was the SWR pricing manager was going to amend the wording, but it never happened, and I have tried chasing it up several times.
 

yorkie

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Well, that is what restriction UR states. It doesn't have the easement relating to journeys wholly within zones 1-6.

Therefore, it's unlawful?
If anyone is denied the right to travel within Zones 1-6 in accordance with the Travelcard Agreement it would absolutely be unlawful.

Even if people are not being turned away or charged excess fares, if anyone is being overcharged for the cost of their journeys, SWR are leaving themselves wide open for a class action lawsuit against them.

The problem is, it's not so easy to get funding for cases which are of relatively low value. But it's a big risk SWR are taking, because if someone was to do it, the evidence is available...
I've been trying to get this issue resolved for a long time. I get nowhere with it. Is there anyone that works in the industry that could help me please? I have correspondence with National Rail over the issue and SWR but nothing has actually changed as a result.

Consider the following journey

Woking to London Euston. Depart at 7am. Return at 9pm on a Saturday. If you put this into National Rail journey planner you will see some journeys priced at £24.60 and some at £20.10. The difference is those where it is quicker (or at least, the planner thinks it is) to change at Clapham Junction and go into Victoria and take the tube rather than stay on the train to Waterloo and take the tube. In the former case, it applies the restriction that you cannot board a train departing Clapham Junction at this time (and hence need the more expensive "Off Peak" not "Super Off Peak"), even those this station is within the Travelcard zone and the rest of the journey is in the Travelcard zones, where no time restrictions apply. I don't believe going via Victoria is any quicker in practice anyway, but that's a different matter.

If you try the same on the SWR website it will ONLY offer the £24.60 price. If you telephone SWR they will offer you the lower £20.10 price - but their website won't. You will get differing results with different journey planners.

I have also spoken to NRE about this. They are *adamant* that what their website does is correct because the restriction talks about trains departing from Clapham Junction at a specific time and don't seem to understand this applies to the part of the journey travelling back out of the zones, and not within the zones. I've confirmed with TFL also that there are no time restrictions, but NRE simply won't have it. The last correspondence I had was the SWR pricing manager was going to amend the wording, but it never happened, and I have tried chasing it up several times.
Retain all evidence, as it may come in useful one day.

It's fundamentally not dissimilar to:
https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=48cfd9f5-8613-4fb5-8b5d-94160c23c528
A claim was launched in the UK’s specialist competition court yesterday by Justin Gutmann, formerly of Citizens Advice, on behalf of millions of passengers who have paid twice for part of their journeys on Southeastern and South Western routes.

- Passengers who have held a Travelcard in the period since October 2015 and bought another ticket for a rail journey that is partially covered by their Travelcard have effectively paid twice for part of their rail journey....
If they are not careful, SWR could be on the receiving end of multiple class action lawsuits.

Oh, and while we're at it, there's this too: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/delay-repay-during-strikes.184546/ !
 

joncombe

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Retain all evidence, as it may come in useful one day.

Well perhaps, but I'd rather just get it changed!

This is the last correspondence I have with the Rail Delivery Group, dated 18th March 2019. I never got a response. I've removed names for privacy reasons.

My name is XXX and I look after the Customer Relations team here at the Rail Delivery Group.

I have been made aware of your ongoing complaint regarding the” Weekend Super Off-Peak Travelcard” and the “Off-Peak Day Travelcard”.

I apologise, profusely for the time this is taking to get to a resolution. I’m putting in an urgent request to South Western Railway to get this amended.

We had previously, asked the pricing Manager at South Western Railway to amend the wording to ensure this particular restriction is made clearer. The wording is critical as the rules within the data powers the journey planner and therefore, has an impact on what trains are displayed.

I will be back in touch as soon as I have an update.

Anyone able to help? Please!
 

Silverdale

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If you try the same on the SWR website it will ONLY offer the £24.60 price. If you telephone SWR they will offer you the lower £20.10 price - but their website won't. You will get differing results with different journey planners.

I have also spoken to NRE about this. They are *adamant* that what their website does is correct because the restriction talks about trains departing from Clapham Junction at a specific time and don't seem to understand this applies to the part of the journey travelling back out of the zones, and not within the zones.

This sounds like yet another example of journey planners using 'unpublished restrictions' to treat fares as invalid, using particular itinerary, even though, by the text of the restriction, they are valid. As a result potential customers are being offered a more expensive ticket than they actually need.
 

yorkie

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This sounds like yet another example of journey planners using 'unpublished restrictions' to treat fares as invalid, using particular itinerary, even though, by the text of the restriction, they are valid. As a result potential customers are being offered a more expensive ticket than they actually need.
Yes, this is true.

If I was a pricing manager for a TOC, I'd be very careful to ensure that I did not have any such restrictions applying to any fares I was in control of, and ensuring compliance with relevant legislation, in order to minimise my company's exposure to potential breaches of consumer, competition and contract laws.

I do wonder how much training is given to relevant people in respect of compliance with relevant laws? I think that is something the rail industry as a whole ought to consider.
 

Bletchleyite

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There's also the LNR issue which has existed for over 5 years - its Super Off Peaks and Off Peaks have the wording "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" but this cannot be implemented so people are getting overcharged many times a day.
 

Silverdale

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I do wonder how much training is given to relevant people in respect of compliance with relevant laws?

I suspect the amount of training will be proportionate to the number of occasions on which train companies are found to be non-compliant and have a financial penalty awarded against them.
 

yorkie

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There's also the LNR issue which has existed for over 5 years - its Super Off Peaks and Off Peaks have the wording "A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" but this cannot be implemented so people are getting overcharged many times a day.
Yes, the value of any potential class action lawsuit is increasing every day, as well as the amount of evidence of the malpractice increasing daily too.
 
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