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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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John Bishop

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There seems to be more HST diagrams on a Saturday out of Inverness for some reason? Think the HML has more HSTs also, can’t remember which services though.
 
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jingsmonty

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This is something of a systematic failure in the way the railways (and Britain in general) are run, I think - the reliance on staff volunteering for extra shifts to cover core operations. There are a multitude of reasons why it's done this way, of course, but it's not sustainable precisely because as soon as people aren't willing to take the extra shifts, the system collapses.

Really, it should be possible to cover all normal shifts (including Sundays, public holidays and unsociable hours) within the normal contracted hours - including leave and other reasonably forseeable absences. Overtime ought to be reserved for unforseen circumstances - but of course that means you have to hire and train more people,) and the existing workforce lose out on overtime pay.

Dragging this back to HSTs - undermanning is one aspect of a lack of system resilience. The tight timetable for getting the HSTs in to release other units is another place where resilience is lacking; if the existing fleets had remained on hire a bit longer, then the cascade could have taken place more gradually and we'd not have as many cases where the Highland Main Line gets a two-car 158 to take 200 people and their luggage. Some services could even have been doubled up, relieving congestion.

But because things had to go off hire so that other operators could use them, that resilience isn't there. We really need to get over this idea that something that isn't being used at full capacity is being wasted.

There are a lot of Drivers in training just now, but, until they are qualified, this will be an ongoing issue
 

Northhighland

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Great idea, they probably hadn't thought of that
Thinking about it doth butter no parsnips. Action is needed. Should be 80%+ of leased HST’s in service classic or refurb. There isn’t.

See thread on GWR GTI’s. They seem to have much less problems getting them working reliably and quickly into passenger revenue service. Surely Scotrail can do the same?
 

Esker-pades

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Thinking about it doth butter no parsnips. Action is needed. Should be 80%+ of leased HST’s in service classic or refurb. There isn’t.

See thread on GWR GTI’s. They seem to have much less problems getting them working reliably and quickly into passenger revenue service. Surely Scotrail can do the same?
No, because the staff haven't been trained on them. The HSTs are entirely new to ScotRail. GWR have been operating HSTs since they took over the franchise.

ScotRail don't choose to keep their shiny, refurbished rolling stock in the depot for no reason. The reason is that staff need to be trained on them before they can be entered into service. There are quite a few depots which are supposed to cover HST diagrams, and all those depots need to have most of their staff trained on them.

It's all very well saying "action is needed", but that means precisely sod all without detail. It's up there with "Brexit means Brexit" as pointless phrase of the year. It also assumes that action isn't happening now.
 

hexagon789

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Thinking about it doth butter no parsnips. Action is needed. Should be 80%+ of leased HST’s in service classic or refurb. There isn’t.

See thread on GWR GTI’s. They seem to have much less problems getting them working reliably and quickly into passenger revenue service. Surely Scotrail can do the same?

But GWR already had HSTs for years, and crucially had plenty of experience with them as a result. It's not a completely fair comparison in that respect.
 

Darandio

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No, because the staff haven't been trained on them. The HSTs are entirely new to ScotRail. GWR have been operating HSTs since they took over the franchise.

But GWR already had HSTs for years, and crucially had plenty of experience with them as a result. It's not a completely fair comparison in that respect.

You are both wasting your time trying to explain.
 

hexagon789

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I thought it would be for all long-distance travel for ScotRail

Well the 170s used to cover the Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High (4 trains an hour), plus many local services alongside 158s. Now the E&G is electrified along with Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa that saves a number of units, so you require fewer HSTs than 170s.

As it is ScotRail are keeping 34 170s I believe out of 55; 42 had First Class.
 

hexagon789

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Ok, how many have first class?

34 units as built, plus the ex-Hull Trains 170/3s originally. Six had First Class retrofitted, plus another 2 with the 170/3s having it removed. So 42 170/4 units had First Class before any went to other TOCs.
 

pt_mad

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What are the arrangements with regards complementary first class catering within the updated HSTs? I noticed a sort of counter in there where it looked like you help yourself to drinks? Do they have a host or does the trolley assistant look after the first class provision? Is there a hot offering that can be purchased anywhere onboard?
 

hexagon789

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What are the arrangements with regards complementary first class catering within the updated HSTs? I noticed a sort of counter in there where it looked like you help yourself to drinks? Do they have a host or does the trolley assistant look after the first class provision? Is there a hot offering that can be purchased anywhere onboard?

The idea was self-service hot drinks in first, plus trolley service in both classes and a buffet counter. I believe there was supposed to be 2 catering crew but there is at the moment only one person working trolley and buffet.

I'm not sure there's a significantly improved hot food provision, they do hot pies/toasties and things, only slightly better than the trolley only arrangement it seems.
 

jingsmonty

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Thinking about it doth butter no parsnips. Action is needed. Should be 80%+ of leased HST’s in service classic or refurb. There isn’t.

See thread on GWR GTI’s. They seem to have much less problems getting them working reliably and quickly into passenger revenue service. Surely Scotrail can do the same?

No, because the staff haven't been trained on them. The HSTs are entirely new to ScotRail. GWR have been operating HSTs since they took over the franchise.

ScotRail don't choose to keep their shiny, refurbished rolling stock in the depot for no reason. The reason is that staff need to be trained on them before they can be entered into service. There are quite a few depots which are supposed to cover HST diagrams, and all those depots need to have most of their staff trained on them.

It's all very well saying "action is needed", but that means precisely sod all without detail. It's up there with "Brexit means Brexit" as pointless phrase of the year. It also assumes that action isn't happening now.

GWR have 40+ years operating HSTs - they're a totally new traction for Scotrail. Don't underestimate the learning curve - it's been pretty steep...

The point about the training is very well made - I'd think that's why they've been scarce on the HML diagrams just now
 

scotraildriver

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Remember too alot of the infrastructure on the Western Region was designed with HSTs in mind. We are trying to maintain them in depots which weren't designed for them, stations alike, fuelling points which don't line up with the power cars being one example, no shore supplies another. With hindsight I suspect the people who put the bid in with HSTs didn't fully understand what was required and Transport Scotland in their nievity went along with it. Wabtec were clearly very over ambitious with their offering. All the people involved in the bid have now left though and we are left to pick up the pieces and make the best of it. Everyone is doing their best to make this work.
 

hexagon789

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GWR have 40+ years operating HSTs - they're a totally new traction for Scotrail. Don't underestimate the learning curve - it's been pretty steep...

Just like anything newly introduced. I'm sure it will improve once everyone is used to them and their quirks. I don't think any traction has ever been introduced into service and been 100% okay off the bat in those terms.
 

jingsmonty

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Remember too alot of the infrastructure on the Western Region was designed with HSTs in mind. We are trying to maintain them in depots which weren't designed for them, stations alike, fuelling points which don't line up with the power cars being one example, no shore supplies another. With hindsight I suspect the people who put the bid in with HSTs didn't fully understand what was required and Transport Scotland in their nievity went along with it. Wabtec were clearly very over ambitious with their offering. All the people involved in the bid have now left though and we are left to pick up the pieces and make the best of it. Everyone is doing their best to make this work.

Just like anything newly introduced. I'm sure it will improve once everyone is used to them and their quirks. I don't think any traction has ever been introduced into service and been 100% okay off the bat in those terms.

Fair comments here, I can particularly relate to the infrastructure not being designed for HSTs! I asked on Yammer a while ago about shore supplies (in Inverness) & the reply was that we were getting them once all the infrastructure work is complete. It will save a fortune in diesel, I'm sure.
 

hexagon789

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Fair comments here, I can particularly relate to the infrastructure not being designed for HSTs! I asked on Yammer a while ago about shore supplies (in Inverness) & the reply was that we were getting them once all the infrastructure work is complete. It will save a fortune in diesel, I'm sure.

I take it that would allow the power cars to be shut down at termini?
 

Railperf

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Thinking about it doth butter no parsnips. Action is needed. Should be 80%+ of leased HST’s in service classic or refurb. There isn’t.

See thread on GWR GTI’s. They seem to have much less problems getting them working reliably and quickly into passenger revenue service. Surely Scotrail can do the same?
Didn't the latest issue of Modern Railways show that the 2+4 sets were pretty unreliable in period 13?
 
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