DarloRich
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sensible posts. Some correspondents would do well to consider them!
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ASLEF push for more female and BAME drivers
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sensible posts. Some correspondents would do well to consider them!
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bunnahabhain
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A friend of mine would probably wear your balls for earrings if she heard you call her a 'lady driver'.
O L Leigh
Established Member
Everyone gets the benefit of the doubt from me, so it's always ladies and gentlemen until I discover otherwise.
Clearly there shouldn't be any distinction, as a driver is a driver is a driver no matter how they identify themselves. However, for the purpose of this discussion gender is sadly pertinent.
If they don’t have a backbone and a bit of fire about them, though, will they be able to stand up to Control when it’s all kicking off and they’re trying to get them to do something that they shouldn’t, or to the signalman when they’re given a dubious instruction? Rightly or wrongly, you do need a bit of something about you to be able to do the job.
I don’t think for a minute that anyone should have to prove themselves in the messroom, though, and indeed there are plenty of quieter folk at our place who largely keep their own company quite happily, and that’s in a messroom that can be pretty raucous at times.
bramling
Veteran Member
Good post.
I don’t think the “messroom culture” should be a major turn-off for anyone. Certainly in the places I’ve known there’s plenty of people who keep themselves to themselves. Anyone who turns up on time, doesn’t catch spares and isn’t obnoxious will fit in just fine. By contrast people who develop a noticeable pattern of blowing out on weekends or nights will not fit in, especially at smaller depots where it will be rather more conspicuous.
This is part of the problem. Being able to challenge the Signaller is a product of training and not determined by ones sex.
It's that perception that we, as Drivers, need to be dominant males to be successful is a perception that needs to change.
Any Driver should be able to challenge an instruction.
I'm sure you are not suggesting that women are somehow more submissive and wouldn't challenge and I totally understand that confidence is part and parcel of the role but it shouldn't be about having a backbone or a bit of fire in the belly. It should, and is, about being a professional Driver. I certainly believe that not enough of us stop and challenge. Two wrong routes recently at our place could have been resolved is the Driver challenged the route when they weren't sure.
WelshBluebird
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Maybe they haven't even thought about it because it is a stereotypical male job where the vast vast majority of employees are white male, and there is a certain preconception about the workplace culture that puts off minorities from that? The exact same is the case for my career, and whilst there is nothing specifically stopping women / minorities applying, it very much has a certain image which does put those groups of people off. And in some cases that image is all too true.
In an ideal world it shouldn't be, but if it is then something is wrong and that culture needs to change IMO. Again talking from my experience in my career.
bramling
Veteran Member
I’m not sure something as mundane as challenging a wrong route is necessarily the issue. More of a problem would be when someone has a manager or such barking at them to do something which is dangerous, or perhaps something’s gone wrong and there’s pressure from all directions coming simply to “get this bloody train moving”. The Peckham detrainment incident springs to mind as an example of the latter.
People can make rash decisions in this situation. I would agree however that having a solid character in this respect isn’t really related to gender. Knowledge of rules and the like is important, but so is to at least some extent having a personality that’s not going to crack the moment there’s an element of pressure applied.
DanDaDriver
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And that’s partly what the MMI checks for.
In agreement with bramling, I wasn’t thinking of something as clear-cut as a wrong route (there’s not much of an argument to be had!) as something like an instruction from Control that seriously contravenes the Rule Book, in one of those moments where they’re all mega stressed, the passengers are contemplating rebellion and the driver’s stuck in the middle trying to keep it all together and get the job done safely. The gender of the driver is irrelevant - what matters is the ability of the driver to rise to the occasion and act correctly under pressure. That is indeed...
Are women less likely to pass the various stages of psychometric testing than men? I genuinely don’t know - I think the stats would make interesting reading.
The current approach seems sensible anyway, targeting recruitment to try to get more women to apply and then give everyone the same chance from then on. I’m all for making reasonable adjustments to accommodate those in the grade who need it (their “lifestyle choices”, as I’ve often heard it referred to, are what will pay our pensions in the future). How far should we go to accommodate those entering the grade though? If there’s a successful push along those lines, there’ll come a point where there just isn’t enough work that fits into “childcare friendly hours”, even before considering the effect on those who aren’t accommodated. It’s a difficult one.
The culture in the messroom - as I say above, I’m not at all sure that anything needs to change, and indeed I think it’d be counter-productive. It’s largely a happy ship at our place, in no small part down to the fact that pretty much everyone gets on with each other and can have a good laugh without causing offence whilst also leaving those in relative peace who want to be left in peace. How could you even change that, short of somehow policing messrooms? Personally, I don’t think I could stand spending hours in the messroom in near-silence, with everyone scared to speak in case they’re judged to have over-spoken by some arbitrary observer after the event...
DanDaDriver
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Back when I was a shunter we shared a messroom with traincrew. The guys who I was trained by were old hairy a**ed b*****ds who cut their teeth in the era of loco hauled coaching stock, hooking off and on all day and the pub opposite the station being the de facto messroom.
When the first female shunter started I was wondering what was gong to happen. And I have to say they could not have been any more pleasant to her, (and subsequent women after.) Nothing drastically altered with the exception of the decline in mucky VHS’ being left lying about the place.
Whilst we’re on the subject I hope there’s going to be a push to attract more women into the shunting and fitting grades as well.
When the first female shunter started I was wondering what was gong to happen. And I have to say they could not have been any more pleasant to her, (and subsequent women after.) Nothing drastically altered with the exception of the decline in mucky VHS’ being left lying about the place.
Whilst we’re on the subject I hope there’s going to be a push to attract more women into the shunting and fitting grades as well.
irish_rail
Established Member
Being a train driver can NEVER be family friendly for everyone it is part and parcel of the career choice. Making the job family friendly for some and not others is extremely unfair for those left to do the graveyard shifts and is arguably discriminatory
irish_rail
Established Member
At my particular depot a female train driver has gone on record (local radio) calling train drivers "pale , male ,and stale". Can u imagine if the boot was on the other foot what an outcry comments such as these would cause!
Mutant Lemming
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That's the 'mafia's' job
theageofthetra
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Spot on.
Perhaps, but until that's proven...
GrimShady
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Honestly who cares what gender/race drivers are as long as the positions are filled with competent individuals?
steve1981
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Completely agree here, say no more!!!!
GrimShady
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Maybe she should be sacked for her clearly discriminatory views?
GrimShady
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She's got a point though!
No she doesn't. It wouldn't be tolerated on the other foot would it? If a male said that about a female majority he would be sacked for such views. Can't have it both ways, its either tolerated or not!
My industry is riddled with this nonsense i.e. trying to make life at sea family friendly and encouraging more women at the expense of others. As if life at sea can in anyway be family friendly unless you're talking about day/short trip vessels! The very notion of selective hiring based on gender or race is counterproductive and is,itself bigoted and discriminatory.
Straight white males accusing women of discrimination when they speak out about inequality are completely missing the point.
GrimShady
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The terminology your using is exactly the problem. There is no inequality here, simply people not choosing a certain career path. If they were actively being discriminated against then fair enough, they aren't it's down to life choice.
deltic
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Well said - as soon as privileged white males face competition they immediately claim they are under attack. London Reconnections had an informative piece on gender issues in transport which is well worth a read at https://www.londonreconnections.com/2019/mind-the-gender-gap-the-hidden-data-gap-in-transport/
GrimShady
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As i said it's the use of language such as "privileged white males" that's the issue, you are singling out a particular sector of the population. The workforce is not to blame for the lack of job attractiveness or others life choices. There is no "competition" as you put it apart from the job market. The best person for the job is what matters here and not some characteristic.
Please explain your definition of "privileged"?
OneOffDave
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In this context privilege refers to the fact that certain sectors of a population don't encounter the same barriers to equal participation and opportunities as others. In western societies it is white able-bodied males that encounter the fewest barriers. This is not to say that all men in these groups have it, but on the whole they are statistically less likely to encounter discrimination than the rest of the population.
irish_rail
Established Member
I'm just not sure it really is harder for women.
A colleague at my depot was telling me how he applied for another job with another toc a couple of years ago. Said colleague had an unblemished driving record and sickness record plus experience driving intercity trains, yet the job went to a female with an abysmal sickness record, several incidents including a spad and no "intercity" experi3nce. And the male colleague was in my opinion (relatively) employable, I'm sure he said he has a degree so interviews etc shouldn't be an issue. It smacks of positive discrimination in my view....
A colleague at my depot was telling me how he applied for another job with another toc a couple of years ago. Said colleague had an unblemished driving record and sickness record plus experience driving intercity trains, yet the job went to a female with an abysmal sickness record, several incidents including a spad and no "intercity" experi3nce. And the male colleague was in my opinion (relatively) employable, I'm sure he said he has a degree so interviews etc shouldn't be an issue. It smacks of positive discrimination in my view....
OneOffDave
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So your anecdote outweighs all the data on gender inequality in the workplace. Good to know it's all sorted then.
bramling
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Privileged white males?
GrimShady
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I find the term damaging and insulting.The idea that some how people like me have got to where they are today through privilege and not through ability or hard work is disgusting. I would go as far to say that's its basically sore loser talk!
I know of many cases in the companies I've worked for where promotions or jobs have had females/other races/sexualities actively promoted above the "privileged white males". Many of the individuals of these characteristics were totally useless. Funny how you don't hear the "privileged" males on the radio making such statements.
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