Mutant Lemming
Established Member
Caught the 22:05 Tamworth to Euston earlier and in coach F seats 1,2,3 and 7 were 'Available' while seats 4, 5, 6 and 8 were 'Available if Not Occupied'. Am wondering what the distinction is between the two terms.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
'Available' as opposed to 'Available if Not Occupied'
- Thread starter Mutant Lemming
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
185143
Established Member
- Joined
- 3 Mar 2013
- Messages
- 4,509
"Available if Unoccupied" means "RESERVED".
I'll end there as I get rather ranty about that particular issue onboard VT.
I'll end there as I get rather ranty about that particular issue onboard VT.
SideshowBob
Member
- Joined
- 21 Jun 2018
- Messages
- 179
"Reserved unless unoccupied" might be better. Either way, you'd have to hope nobody pinched your seat if you went to the loo or the buffet!
Aictos
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 Apr 2009
- Messages
- 10,403
Would it not be simpler just to stick with Reserved between Stafford and London Euston for example and Available as is the case on the LNER as then you can see if the seat is free or not for example IF I'm travelling Liverpool to Stafford and the seat has Reserved between Stafford and London Euston then there is no reason why I can't use the seat.
I wonder if it's a reservation that was, say Chester - London.
But if nobody is sitting in the seat (and it's quite far away from Chester), it's free?
But then why not just put "available" because if you have a reservation, you'd be sitting in it - any new customers wouldn't know if you had a reservation or not. (Yes, apart from getting up to go to the toilet or whatever.)
Or why not just keep it as "reserved"? Let's face it, people sit in "reserved" seats if there is nobody there anyway.
A lot of thought process and over complication for something that should be simple.
But if nobody is sitting in the seat (and it's quite far away from Chester), it's free?
But then why not just put "available" because if you have a reservation, you'd be sitting in it - any new customers wouldn't know if you had a reservation or not. (Yes, apart from getting up to go to the toilet or whatever.)
Or why not just keep it as "reserved"? Let's face it, people sit in "reserved" seats if there is nobody there anyway.
A lot of thought process and over complication for something that should be simple.
plymothian
Member
It's VT code for 'this seat is reserved, but if the bearer of the reservation has not turned up, the seat is available so please use it rather than stand but be aware that the holder of the reservation may still turn up'.
There are plenty people who travel who have no geographical knowledge, and still won't sit in a seat that is showing as reserved but has remained empty many stations beyond where the reservation began.
There are plenty people who travel who have no geographical knowledge, and still won't sit in a seat that is showing as reserved but has remained empty many stations beyond where the reservation began.
DelW
Established Member
- Joined
- 15 Jan 2015
- Messages
- 3,872
It seems fairly logical to me. In the case of a train from A via B and C to D, a seat reserved from B to C would show displays:
- from A to B: "reserved from B" > anyone can use it until there
- from B to C: "available if unoccupied" > anyone can use it if the reservation holder hasn't occupied it
- from C to D: "available" > anyone can use it as the reservation has expired
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's a bit awkward in summer if travelling with nothing to leave there, but in winter I'd just leave a jumper or coat. Only once have I come back to someone who moved it ("Oh, you were a long time so I assumed it was forgotten") but he did move.
DB operate this kind of policy - guards used to go through about 5 minutes after each station removing the paper reservations. You had to claim your seat before this or it became unreserved. I believe the electronic ones clear off in the same way.
I'm not really sure about that. If it states 'Reserved' then people probably won't sit in it. If it's occupied then they cannot sit in it anyway.
The problem here is that when I last observed these messages they said ‘Available If unoccupied’ whilst sat at their origin. I’m not sure if that was a one off error but clearly it is unhelpful to have a train say at Liverpool in this case 20 minutes before departure.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That sounds like a bug. The sensible use-case is to show reserved but then change it maybe 5 minutes after departure, or if that doesn't work change it at the first station after the reservation started.
DerekC
Established Member
Why is VT doing it this odd way? The XC system (when it works, which is not by any means always) simply states the next reservation for that seat, so when getting on at Winchester it will say "Reserved from Reading" or "Reserved Reading to Birmingham", which is very clear. And of course if it says "Reserved from Southampton to Oxford" but is unoccupied it's up for grabs! (assuming no coats etc). It's almost exactly the same as the old paper system. The only extra thing this did is tell you if the seat was reserved for two blocks in the same journey. You do have to know the stations on the route, but it is at least unambiguous.
I guess one day we will have "intelligent seats" which require you to scan a card (or maybe they will just read your embedded microchip) when you sit down to see whether you are the person with the reservation.
I guess one day we will have "intelligent seats" which require you to scan a card (or maybe they will just read your embedded microchip) when you sit down to see whether you are the person with the reservation.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
much easier with a paper ticket that allows you to easily work out when a seat is reserved. Such is the price of technology
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
Incidentally the whole carriage was unoccupied till Rugby when a couple boarded so it was unlikely any issues would have arose on that particular train. Could these seats be for 'last minute' or 'late' reservations ? I can see the potential point in marking those seats as such if people boarding further down the line could reserve a seat if purchasing their ticket after the train has left the originating station.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Perhaps surprisingly, VTWC doesn't offer "ten minute reservations" or anything similar.
trainophile
Established Member
I was on the 1254 EDB-EUS today, boarded at Haymarket. We were a bit naughty and moved just across the aisle from our reserved seats as the sun was on that side, taking two seats that were not reserved until a few stops after we were getting off. I glanced across after Carlisle and noticed our original seats still said "reserved from Haymarket", whereas I was expecting to see "available if unoccupied". Made me wonder whether they have discontinued this practice.
For one thing, someone on an open ticket may decide to board at a later station to the one originally booked from, and would presumably still expect to occupy their reserved seat.
For one thing, someone on an open ticket may decide to board at a later station to the one originally booked from, and would presumably still expect to occupy their reserved seat.
SideshowBob
Member
- Joined
- 21 Jun 2018
- Messages
- 179
They must be terribly nervous people in your neck of the woods! Round here, if a seat's reserved but not occupied, 99.9 times out of 100 it's getting sat on!
Seen this on service from Glasgow a few days ago . From Glasgow to Lancaster it was showing , reserved from Lancaster , from Lancaster it was showing available if not occupied .
I had a booked seat from Glasgow to Warrington BQ and my display was showing as reserved from Warrington
I had a booked seat from Glasgow to Warrington BQ and my display was showing as reserved from Warrington
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Mutant Lemming
Established Member
The train had originated from Liverpool which probably wouldn't give a great deal of notice either but had the train come from Glasgow and you booked a ticket from Rugby a few hours ahead of departure then it may be feasible to have standby reserved which are vacant but may be reserved further down the line. Am sure the technology to operate such a system is out there and probably sure that no TOC in this country has it - or do they?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
XC and TPE do it by marking seats as maybe reserved. It's not, shall we say, universally popular.
1) Never cease to be amazed at the number of people who (say) get on a Stansted bound train at Ely who don't realise that a Birmingham to Leicester reservation on an unoccupied seat is unlikely to be claimed...
2) Paper labels are also useful for gazing in from the platform to get a flavour for how heavily reserved (or not) a carriage is on arrival and where free seats are located.
But in today's environmentally-conscious world printing out reams of paper/card every day doesn't feel 'right' anymore.
Personally, I think seat reservations should be issued more selectively than they are now, rather than a freebie for all.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Assuming you aren't colourblind, the colour lights on 80x do this very well.
I think they should be chargeable - £2 per direction would be about right to me and would stop people taking them "just in case" - they'd only pay for them if they intended to use them, just like carrier bags.
I'd also make them refundable if cancelled - £1 back if cancelled before the train leaves its origin (so it can be removed).
VT 390
Established Member
- Joined
- 7 Dec 2018
- Messages
- 1,366
The only issue I have with them compared to paper reservations is that you can only see one side of the carriage reservations from the platform
I very much agree that they should be charged on any type of flexible ticket but not for advanced ones as you can only use the ticket on that service.
xotGD
Established Member
- Joined
- 4 Feb 2017
- Messages
- 6,086
'available if not occupied' = 'nobody is sitting here unless somebody is sitting here'
Just a statement of the obvious.
Just a statement of the obvious.
Merle Haggard
Established Member
I still don't understand the logic...
Recently I boarded an up Voyager at New St about 15 minutes before departure. At first the reservation displays showed those for its incoming service. About 10 minutes before departure time, the displays changed to the up service. The seat I was sitting in showed 'available if unoccupied' but the one opposite me showed 'available'. Obviously, this was before its journey had commenced; I was conforming to the rules displayed but it would be possible for someone with a reservation for that seat to arrive in the remaining time.
Conversely, I boarded an up Scottish train which had started at Preston (R/A wires problem) but many seats were shown as 'reserved from Glasgow' rather than 'available if unoccupied'.
West Coast reservations do seem to have some flaws; I also recently boarded the DMF in a Voyager to find the displays on the single seat side had two lines; one for the window seat, the other for the ghost seat numbers - the seat numbers on these (unlike the Pendos, which have continuos nos.) are, for example, 21 22 (the two seats together) - gangway - 24 but the non-existent 23 was shown as 'available' above 24.
But it's just a minor puzzle. On the other hand, every seat in an XC DMF is 'may be reserved en route'.
Recently I boarded an up Voyager at New St about 15 minutes before departure. At first the reservation displays showed those for its incoming service. About 10 minutes before departure time, the displays changed to the up service. The seat I was sitting in showed 'available if unoccupied' but the one opposite me showed 'available'. Obviously, this was before its journey had commenced; I was conforming to the rules displayed but it would be possible for someone with a reservation for that seat to arrive in the remaining time.
Conversely, I boarded an up Scottish train which had started at Preston (R/A wires problem) but many seats were shown as 'reserved from Glasgow' rather than 'available if unoccupied'.
West Coast reservations do seem to have some flaws; I also recently boarded the DMF in a Voyager to find the displays on the single seat side had two lines; one for the window seat, the other for the ghost seat numbers - the seat numbers on these (unlike the Pendos, which have continuos nos.) are, for example, 21 22 (the two seats together) - gangway - 24 but the non-existent 23 was shown as 'available' above 24.
But it's just a minor puzzle. On the other hand, every seat in an XC DMF is 'may be reserved en route'.
Had something similar from Glasgow , ex Glasgow reservations were not showing but ones from stations further down the WCML were.
People just see a label and dont sit in it . Yeah i do that window gazing . TPE 185 at Glasgow , every single seat apart from priority seats had a label , i had a walk up ticket.
you Need some kind of incentive for people to cancel unused reservations before the train leaves. Surely something could be worked out for frequent travellers via the apps?
It would need to be something useful for business travellers who wouldn’t care about a few quid refund to expenses.
It would need to be something useful for business travellers who wouldn’t care about a few quid refund to expenses.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I've long thought this. Charge £2 for reservations to discourage people doing them "just in case" and give £1 back for cancelling an unneeded one would be how I'd do it. Financial incentives, even small ones (see the "bag tax"), do work.
- Status