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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Killingworth

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Of the 26 sets, 17 are to be 2+5, the other 9 2+4 with 2 two sets (one of each I think) being extended to 2+6 within a few years.

That was the plan, this far all sets have been 2+4, hopefully we see some 2+5s before long.

Edit - You could probably make them all 2+5 quite easily, 2+6 might not fit everywhere, not too sure.

Thanks for confirmation that the current situation is worse than the low number of units currently released by Wabtec may suggest. At the current rate of progress the extra carriages to make them up to the planned configurations will still be in the workshops (if not still in storage) this time next year.

It's probably going to be 2021 before they can all be fully exploited in service. Maybe when Kilmarnock is fully contributing things will improve significantly.

I saw several Azumas on the ECML yesterday, and travelled on one. It
reminded me how much easier it must be to correct faults on brand new units than rusted bodies with a variety of repairs and alterations acquired over 40 years.
 
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Highlandspring

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And is there a buffet within every set / just the classic sets / or just the Inter7City sets? And are there seats within the buffet coach?
The buffet vehicle is only included in the refurbished sets and has 32 first class seats.
 

hexagon789

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Thanks for confirmation that the current situation is worse than the low number of units currently released by Wabtec may suggest. At the current rate of progress the extra carriages to make them up to the planned configurations will still be in the workshops (if not still in storage) this time next year.

It's probably going to be 2021 before they can all be fully exploited in service. Maybe when Kilmarnock is fully contributing things will improve significantly.

I saw several Azumas on the ECML yesterday, and travelled on one. It
reminded me how much easier it must be to correct faults on brand new units than rusted bodies with a variety of repairs and alterations acquired over 40 years.

Yes, I think it will be a while. I'm optimistic that 2020 will be the year though, not 2021.
 

jingsmonty

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Variations on the agreement are routinely negotiated with Transport Scotland. Not sure they’d agree ditching the buffet altogether just because ScotRail are too tightfisted to resource it properly though..

Appreciate it just a rumour, but a rumour with a grain enough of logic in it that it wouldn't seem totally 'out there' if it happened. Though the point of the franchise agreement is a good one, but as noted they do renegotiate these things - so you never know...

I'd certainly hope not!
 

Starmill

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The rumours about ditching the buffet are certainly being believed by a handful of the actual catering crew themselves. I was having a chat with one a couple of weeks ago after they had pushed their trolley up and down the HST, who was saying as much.

I am not sure I believe it personally.
 

jingsmonty

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Over 8400 posts to wade through! Having travelled to Bristol and Cardiff in new HSTs about 1977 it's remarkable that they're still in use, and will be for a few years yet.

2 power cars with 4 coaches seems a lot of spare capacity, especially when 9 car units have apparently operated successfully on the ECML.

Assuming these teething problems can be resolved, surely a refurbished fleet that doesn't fail is going to attract new users.

Is there any likelihood, even possibility, that the units could subsequently be stretched to 5 or 6 cars to match increased demand?

Sorry if this was discussed months ago.

Part of the logic with short formed sets is to dramatically improve the acceleration of the timetable - it's not quite the same sort of service as the full length HST sets were for (eg, hammering along at 125mph with limited stops). Now they will be expected to stop at a lot more stations, therefore the acceleration is key.
 

hexagon789

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Part of the logic with short formed sets is to dramatically improve the acceleration of the timetable - it's not quite the same sort of service as the full length HST sets were for (eg, hammering along at 125mph with limited stops). Now they will be expected to stop at a lot more stations, therefore the acceleration is key.

I wouldn't say it was too many, they've certainly made Aberdeens relatively limited stop.
 

jingsmonty

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The rumours about ditching the buffet are certainly being believed by a handful of the actual catering crew themselves. I was having a chat with one a couple of weeks ago after they had pushed their trolley up and down the HST, who was saying as much.

I am not sure I believe it personally.

Well I hope not too, a buffet was definitely another step-up in having quality InterCity services.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense either. As another poster said, there's not even any power doors in the vestibule next to the buffet anyway! There's a cupboard/locked out toilet or 2 that could fairly easily be used for bikes instead.
 

hexagon789

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I don't think it makes a lot of sense either. As another poster said, there's not even any power doors in the vestibule next to the buffet anyway! There's a cupboard/locked out toilet or 2 that could fairly easily be used for bikes instead.

That's what would make far more sense, covering ALL the disused toilets to cycle space. Then you'd have space for 2 bikes in every coach but the buffet car and 4 in the bike coach.

Didn't someone say it was being looked at a few pages back?
 

jingsmonty

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I wouldn't say it was too many, they've certainly made Aberdeens relatively limited stop.

They will also be working services on the HML too - a 4+2 set will accelerate much quicker than the 9 coach LNER HST, particularly on the steep gradients. A 5+2 (or even a 6+2) would be fine though (apart from the lack of room at some platforms). Aberdeen to Inverness as well.
 

najaB

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I'd certainly hope not!
I wouldn't be surprised if it's an example of somebody getting the wrong end of the stick. For example: "We're not doing the buffets yet" has been interpreted as "We're not doing the buffets".
 

hexagon789

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They will also be working services on the HML too - a 4+2 set will accelerate much quicker than the 9 coach LNER HST, particularly on the steep gradients. A 5+2 (or even a 6+2) would be fine though (apart from the lack of room at some platforms). Aberdeen to Inverness as well.

I think a uniform 2+5 fleet would be the way to go.
 

hexagon789

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I wouldn't be surprised if it's an example of somebody getting the wrong end of the stick. For example: "We're not doing the buffets yet" has been interpreted as "We're not doing the buffets".

That seems very possible and I'm sure we're all hoping that that is indeed the case, a simple misinterpretation.
 

jingsmonty

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I think a uniform 2+5 fleet would be the way to go.

Funnily enough, I asked that very same question at the Abellio roadshow they did for the staff (before they took over the franchise). I can't actually remember what the reply was! Something to the effect of that if the traffic level justified it, they could add coaches.

5+2 does create major issues - you'd lose half the South/East platforms at Inverness for a start. Inverness struggles for capacity at times already. Agree that in an ideal world, a uniform fleet would be better - just waiting for the day when a 4+2 ends up on a 5+2 diagram!
 

hexagon789

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Funnily enough, I asked that very same question at the Abellio roadshow they did for the staff (before they took over the franchise). I can't actually remember what the reply was! Something to the effect of that if the traffic level justified it, they could add coaches.

5+2 does create major issues - you'd lose half the South/East platforms at Inverness for a start. Inverness struggles for capacity at times already. Agree that in an ideal world, a uniform fleet would be better - just waiting for the day when a 4+2 ends up on a 5+2 diagram!

I forgot there were issues at Inverness, the platforming at Queen Street I remembered because of all the construction work.

So effectively, they could extend, they might extend, they would extend but they might not be able to do that because of a loss of operational flexibility at Inverness. Possibly it might affect other stations as well.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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Slightly confused at post #8431, sorry. So Scotrail could be introducing 2+6-coach HST's???

Great capacity increase but I'm assuming they'd keep to Class 158 and 170 timings ok?
 

hexagon789

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Slightly confused at post #8431, sorry. So Scotrail could be introducing 2+6-coach HST's???

Great capacity increase but I'm assuming they'd keep to Class 158 and 170 timings ok?

It was planned that two existing sets would be extended to 2+6 after about a year or so.

A 2+9 HST can do 100mph quicker than a 170, a 2+6 will have no problem.
 

najaB

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Slightly confused at post #8431, sorry. So Scotrail could be introducing 2+6-coach HST's???

Great capacity increase but I'm assuming they'd keep to Class 158 and 170 timings ok?
There should be two of them, and yes I'd expect they would keep to 170 timings because they (170s) aren't exactly sprightly.
 

scotraildriver

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That's what would make far more sense, covering ALL the disused toilets to cycle space. Then you'd have space for 2 bikes in every coach but the buffet car and 4 in the bike coach.

Didn't someone say it was being looked at a few pages back?

There is stuff in these cupboards though. One is the communications cupboard with Wi-Fi equipment and various other things. Another is the secure storage for the trolley. The 3rd one contains emergency equipment and a Class 67 emergency coupler and CCTV equipment and associated gubbins.
 

hexagon789

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There is stuff in these cupboards though. One is the communications cupboard with Wi-Fi equipment and various other things. Another is the secure storage for the trolley. The 3rd one contains emergency equipment and a Class 67 emergency coupler and CCTV equipment and associated gubbins.

What cupboards? I was talking about the disused toilets. As far as I was aware the non-retention toilets were being left in situ but locked out?
 

jingsmonty

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Slightly confused at post #8431, sorry. So Scotrail could be introducing 2+6-coach HST's???

Great capacity increase but I'm assuming they'd keep to Class 158 and 170 timings ok?

Pass! There are also differential speeds on the HML that HSTs can't currently use, which might affect things. Also a 6+2 (and to a lesser degree, a 5+2) has issues with platform lengths
 

route101

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There should be two of them, and yes I'd expect they would keep to 170 timings because they (170s) aren't exactly sprightly.

I haven't been on a lot of 170s recently but i did take one from Dundee to Glasgow and boy do you notice how slow they are now
 
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