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ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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Mitchell Hurd

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route101 said:
I haven't been on a lot of 170s recently but i did take one from Dundee to Glasgow and boy do you notice how slow they are now
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I know this is irrelevant but during 2017, I went on 2 Class 159's. They might do 90mph, but those things accelerate quick. When I went on the 14:49 from Birmingham New Street to Worcester Foregate Street on October 6th that year, it was as I hoped a Class 150 (2-cars and quite rammed). They get to 75mph quite quickly!
 
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scotraildriver

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hexagon789 said:
What cupboards? I was talking about the disused toilets. As far as I was aware the non-retention toilets were being left in situ but locked out?
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No there are no toilets in there now. The unused toilets are now cupboards with things like Whiskey Distillery and Tartan Paint storage on the doors. The classic sets are having GPS fitted to half the toilets to prevent flushing in stations, the rest remaining in situ but locked out. But the unused toilets in the refurbs have other uses now
 
hexagon789

hexagon789

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scotraildriver said:
No there are no toilets in there now. The unused toilets are now cupboards with things like Whiskey Distillery and Tartan Paint storage on the doors. The classic sets are having GPS fitted to half the toilets to prevent flushing in stations, the rest remaining in situ but locked out. But the unused toilets in the refurbs have other uses now
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Okay, that's changed then, I'm sure previously they were being left in, not that it made sense to of course.
 
jingsmonty

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scotraildriver said:
No there are no toilets in there now. The unused toilets are now cupboards with things like Whiskey Distillery and Tartan Paint storage on the doors. The classic sets are having GPS fitted to half the toilets to prevent flushing in stations, the rest remaining in situ but locked out. But the unused toilets in the refurbs have other uses now
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hexagon789 said:
Okay, that's changed then, I'm sure previously they were being left in, not that it made sense to of course.
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I know 1 cupboard is being used for storage (for spare 36 wire jumpoers, pipe extensions, etc), but I thought there'd be at least 1 other spare space?
 
Killingworth

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jingsmonty said:
Funnily enough, I asked that very same question at the Abellio roadshow they did for the staff (before they took over the franchise). I can't actually remember what the reply was! Something to the effect of that if the traffic level justified it, they could add coaches.

5+2 does create major issues - you'd lose half the South/East platforms at Inverness for a start. Inverness struggles for capacity at times already. Agree that in an ideal world, a uniform fleet would be better - just waiting for the day when a 4+2 ends up on a 5+2 diagram!
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It's probably almost 30 years since I last visited Inverness by train, but my recollection is of at least 2 very long platforms and two shorter, but still able to take trains of 6 or 7 coaches, possibly plus locomotive? Have any been shortened, or are 2 trains being placed in some of the platforms? Is there room to lengthen any?

Regarding short platforms at smaller stations, nationally SDO is now being used at very many. Couldn't that be added to HSTs and the stations concerned? Before SDO it was merely announced that passengers for X or Y should only travel in the front 2 or 3 coaches - and they generally knew that, and did. Or had to run forward in the train in panic before being carried forward.
 
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Drumtochty

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The HST 4 car has 12.6 HP at the wheel after train heating etc
The HST 5 car has 11.2 HP at the wheel after train heating etc
The HST 6 car has 10.1 HP at the wheel after train heating etc
The HST 8 car has 8.4 HP at the wheel after train heating etc
170 has 8.2 HP at the wheel after train heating etc

A 6 coach HST will be faster than a 170 but will be a good bit slower than the 4 and 5 car units especially on acceleration.
 
jingsmonty

jingsmonty

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Mitchell Hurd said:
I know this is irrelevant but during 2017, I went on 2 Class 159's. They might do 90mph, but those things accelerate quick. When I went on the 14:49 from Birmingham New Street to Worcester Foregate Street on October 6th that year, it was as I hoped a Class 150 (2-cars and quite rammed). They get to 75mph quite quickly!
Click to expand...

Not compared to a 4+2 HST, that's for sure! The difference between a Class 170 (and, even more so, a Class 158) in acceleration is quite an eye-opener. I drove a 4+2 HST north from Perth a few weeks ago, with a sick leading power car (basically the engine was running, but supplying zero traction power - effectively a 4+1, along with a dead power car) was roughly comparable to a Class 170 running at full power!
 
jingsmonty

jingsmonty

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Killingworth said:
It's probably almost 30 years since I last visited Inverness by train, but my recollection is of at least 2 very long platforms and two shorter, but still able to take trains of 6 or 7 coaches, possibly plus locomotive? Have any been shortened, or are 2 trains being placed in some of the platforms? Is there room to lengthen any?

Regarding short platforms at smaller stations, nationally SDO is now being used at very many. Couldn't that be added to HSTs and the stations concerned? Before SDO it was merely announced that passengers for X or Y should only travel in the front 2 or 3 coaches - and they generally knew that, and did. Or had to run forward in the train in panic before being carried forward.
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That's a big project! I think the 170s are equipped with SDO (I seem to remember when I was training as a Conductor being told, in no uncertain terms, never, ever to use it). Short platforms aren't really the issue (the refurbs can do 'One Door Working' easily enough - just like the DMUs do), it's the terminal platforms (like Platforms 3 & 4 at Inverness), where a 5+2 would be starting ahead of a signal (and occupying the track circuit ahead).
 
hexagon789

hexagon789

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Drumtochty said:
The HST 4 car has 12.6 HP at the wheel after train heating etc
The HST 5 car has 11.2 HP at the wheel after train heating etc
The HST 6 car has 10.1 HP at the wheel after train heating etc
The HST 8 car has 8.4 HP at the wheel after train heating etc
170 has 8.2 HP at the wheel after train heating etc

A 6 coach HST will be faster than a 170 but will be a good bit slower than the 4 and 5 car units especially on acceleration.
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Some figures I have, all for full power starts:

2+9: 0-100 in 4:00
2+8: 0-100 in 3:38
2+7: 0-100 in 3:15
 
hexagon789

hexagon789

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jingsmonty said:
Agreed. It's no better than we have just now - the only benefit is that it doesn't encroach on the disabled seating area. Even 2 more cupboards (6 bikes) would be good
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I think capacity similar to two 156s (12 bikes), would be the ideal. I think practically, ignoring the power cars, 6-8 would be about the maximum you could do in a 2+4.
 
jingsmonty

jingsmonty

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Killingworth said:
It's probably almost 30 years since I last visited Inverness by train, but my recollection is of at least 2 very long platforms and two shorter, but still able to take trains of 6 or 7 coaches, possibly plus locomotive? Have any been shortened, or are 2 trains being placed in some of the platforms? Is there room to lengthen any?

Regarding short platforms at smaller stations, nationally SDO is now being used at very many. Couldn't that be added to HSTs and the stations concerned? Before SDO it was merely announced that passengers for X or Y should only travel in the front 2 or 3 coaches - and they generally knew that, and did. Or had to run forward in the train in panic before being carried forward.
Click to expand...

Not quite - Platform 2 can take 11 coaches. Platform 1 can (just) take the LNER 9 coach HST. Platforms 3 & 4 are maximum 6 car (3x 158s or 2x 170s). I can't see any scope for lengthening 3 & 4, not without some serious (Queen St style) rebuilding work
 
hexagon789

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jingsmonty said:
Interesting, cheers for that! I've only ever driven a 4+2, which does feel quite rapid!
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Don't have proper figures for those, BR didn't run them like that as such!

I've heard it's about 2:30 to 100mph? And that's presumably not going straight to Notch 5.
 
jingsmonty

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hexagon789 said:
I think capacity similar to two 156s (12 bikes), would be the ideal. I think practically, ignoring the power cars, 6-8 would be about the maximum you could do in a 2+4.
Click to expand...

I think that would be fine, 6-8 would be acceptable. I just can't get my head around that there doesn't seem to be any way to utilise the powwer car van area
 
jingsmonty

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hexagon789 said:
Don't have proper figures for those, BR didn't run them like that as such!

I've heard it's about 2:30 to 100mph? And that's presumably not going straight to Notch 5.
Click to expand...

I could believe that. Unfortunately, there's nowhere I could actually test that out on my routes :E
 
jingsmonty

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najaB said:
Is there any 100mph on routes out of Inverness?
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hexagon789 said:
It's 100 for 3.5 miles going north out of Kingussie iirc. Afaik that's the only 100 section between Perth and Inverness.
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That's correct. It's not a stretch of line you'd be accelerating to 100mph from a stand (unless you were stopped at Kincraig loop, heading South). I do know that heading North from Kingussie, you have to shut off on the 80mph (from just after the station) before you reach the 100mph stretch - you certainly don't do that in a DMU!
 
hexagon789

hexagon789

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jingsmonty said:
That's correct. It's not a stretch of line you'd be accelerating to 100mph from a stand (unless you were stopped at Kincraig loop, heading South). I do know that heading North from Kingussie, you have to shut off on the 80mph (from just after the station) before you reach the 100mph stretch - you certainly don't do that in a DMU!
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Can you make 100 on that stretch?
 
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Southsider

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scotraildriver said:
No there are no toilets in there now. The unused toilets are now cupboards with things like Whiskey Distillery and Tartan Paint storage on the doors. The classic sets are having GPS fitted to half the toilets to prevent flushing in stations, the rest remaining in situ but locked out. But the unused toilets in the refurbs have other uses now
Click to expand...
Whisky surely?
 
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chuff chuff

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hexagon789 said:
Don't have proper figures for those, BR didn't run them like that as such!

I've heard it's about 2:30 to 100mph? And that's presumably not going straight to Notch 5.
Click to expand...

Yeah it's been a wee while since I noted it but yes roughly 2 and half minutes and two and a half miles to hit the ton.Obviously that's not hanging around but no not straight to notch five but you don't wait long.
 
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